Let's talk about it. Abortions

Wow, Kim. I made such a short comment, and nowhere in my comment did I advocate abortion. But you certainly put a lot of words in my mouth.

There is no way to have your perfect world, where every woman with an unwanted pregnancy will choose to adopt the baby. I, too, wish more women would choose this option.

And those couples who spend enormous amounts of money to conceive - THEY CHOOSE TO DO THAT OVER ADOPTION! They have that choice, and they still choose to try to conceive.

You seem to spend a lot of time wanting to control people's choices. It's just not going to happen. People are vain, emotional, and sometimes just plain stupid.

I wish a lot of people would choose to become sterilized, but that's not going to happen, either.

I am Pro-Choice, and I agree with Bazookaman that our tax dollars should not fund abortion.

And I don't have a problem with the farmer drowning his kittens. He should, however, get his cats spayed and/or neutered. I do have a problem with you wanting to fan people's anger and righteous indignation and ruin his livelihood over it.

The right to choose comes before conception. I choose to do the right thing. I choose to accept the consequences of my actions.

The baby isn't getting any of these choices. And yes they are babies, Look at how much effort is put into saving a premature baby who weighs a pound. Or in a murder case, if a woman is pregnant the baby is counted as a life too.

We can't have things both ways. You cannot live the life that you want and choose dispose of an inconvenience (baby), so that you can continue on with your lifestyle.

There are many organizations now that can help unwed mothers and do so.

As for me, I try to put my money where my mouth is and support unwed mothers whenever I can.

No we should not allow Planned Parenthood to continue receiving tax dollars for abortions. If they were content with the other aspects of women's health care, fine.

Life can through you a curve ball occasionally. But unborn babies are still babies and we know with all the new technology available that they are not a blob of flesh. They have heartbeats, they feel pain. They even recognize voices and respond to music.

If you are anticipating the new arrival of life, it is a baby. If you are inconvenienced by your life choices, it is a fetus. They all start out the same, but that pesky little word "choice" is akin to a receiving line of directives. You can live, you won't live, you are wanted, you are not wanted.

Your reproductive rights are not being violated if you made the "choice" to live your life taking chances on the roulette table of conception with a partner.

I AM PRO CHOICE FOR THE SAME REAONS.I come from a family of catholics who turned (yrs ago ) episcapalian.PRO CHOICE WAS PART OF THE CHANGE AND DIVORCE WHICH THEY SAW AS A CHOICE ISSUE AND IS, IN MY BOOK.

IF you want to root down on every issue until you find a loophole you can.I WOULD LIKE TO THINK THAT IF IT WAS IN A BILL THAT IT WAS AND OVERSITE.

I dont know about you guys but iv read some of these bills and I think there written in a way that you need staffers who are lawyers to write them and understand them.....and thats because of redundancy. When you cant read a sentence because of referances there is something wrong.Truthfully I DONT THINK THEY WANT US TO BE ABLE TO READ THEM,(my thought only).

I agree no public funding for abortion, exception being,rape,incest,life of mother. I DONT THINK THERE SHOULD BE ANY RESTRICTION ON THAT CHOICE FOR PRIVATE INSURANCE AND OR FUNDS.THEY ARE FACILITATING THERE CHOICE.

Now with that being said we must understand that for the poor and impoverished abortion is usually out of reach and therefore dooms them to a lot of things.ADOPTION IS A LIMITED OPTION and we refuse to admit that.

A good part of this argument is when do we consider life to be viable. And that is a subject all of its own,but a key to this issue.And that is the basis of the LIVE kitten scenario.

WELL GOT TO RUN..............

Your getting off track here. Abortions are no longer funded with federal money

http://thehill.com/blogs/healthwatch/health-reform-implementation/147439-judicia...

I don't believe the kittens in the creek analogy is remotely accurate. The kittens in this hypothetical situation are already born, alive and, we assume, healthy, if unwanted. Abortions, by definition, involve a baby that has not yet been born. I'm more upset at someone drowning live kittens than I am at a woman aborting an early-term unwanted pregnancy. They both turn my stomach a bit, but one deals with a living creature, the other with something not yet viable.

Which is a point I think bears discussion. There's an awful lot of melodramatic statements about killing babies being thrown around here, but the reality is, by definition, prior to birth it is a fetus and we, as a culture, have not yet defined when life begins for a fetus. I have a very difficult time with the concept of aborting a viable fetus, and will vote against it vehemently every time. I have no qualms whatsoever with Plan B preventing a fertilized egg cell from implanting in the uterine wall. The first involves "killing" what I believe can only be described as a living being by any rational definition. The second does so only in the very strictest of technicalities. To label them both as "abortion" is painting with a very broad brush. Where does it end? Does spermicide count as murder? How about male masturbation? Is it a woman's moral duty to attempt to become impregnated every time she is fertile? Does failure to do so count as negligent manslaughter?

Am I glad my mother didn't use Plan B when she realized she was pregnant? Of course. Would I blame her if she had? No. I believe I was a possibility at that point, but not yet a reality. It is impractical, to say the least, to afford the same rights and consequences to possibilities that we do to realities. I may imagine getting out of my car and shoving some morons cell phone where the sun don't shine, but I think we can all agree the thought alone doesn't merit any legal consequences.

I think it's fairly obvious that we all have extremely differing views on the point at which a possibility becomes a reality. I'm certain there are people in the world who truly believe a woman is committing murder every time she allows an egg to go unfertilized. Should this view be the one put into legal practice? Unlikely. There are a large number of people who believe that life begins when egg meets sperm and implants in the uterine wall. Should their view be set into law? It certainly could be, but it ignores the view of another large population that believes life begins when a fetus is viable. What makes one group more "right" than the other? What about all the views that fall between, or outside, of the ones I've just mentioned? Do we ignore their right to independent thought and action?

In my mind, the "fairest" way is the way that protects the rights, and beliefs, of as many as possible. I think the only way to do that is to allow each woman to choose for herself where she will draw that line. I respect the right of a woman to believe that life begins at conception and to act accordingly. I also respect the right of a woman to believe that life begins at viability. Or when the heart begins to beat. Or when the brain develops. Or whatever other definition she chooses. Thus, I define myself as "pro-choice", not "pro-death" as has been suggested, as I do not support the right to abort a viable fetus.

So, there is my discussion on Abortion, for whatever it's worth considering we haven't yet defined "life" in a way that allows us to pass moral or legal judgment on a woman who chooses to "kill" an unborn child. And yes, the word "judgment" WAS deliberately chosen.

Wonderful responses. I am pleased to see that many of you actually believe that this is an issue about a life and not a "fetus". Since abortions can be done up to 20 weeks and sometimes beyond, there is little doubt in my mind that these are real lives. I've seen the pictures of babies in the womb at 20 weeks. I appreciate that most you really thought-out your comments. I posted this knowing that I would be slaughtered but did so anyways, not due to some deep-seeded need for attention but out of a deep-seeded need to be true to what I believe.

Heather: Your response was pretty good, as well. Though you did make a few jabs at me, I'm okay with that. Abortion issues are very emotional to think about. In case you don't understand, the kittens scenerio wasn't exactly my opinion. Nor would I avocate fanning the public's outrage and ruining his livlihood. I was being ironic when I said that the farmer would be attacked. My point was that more people would be outraged and more apt to respond against the farmer for his actions while women are allowed to kill their babies (over 330,000 connected to PP alone). Killing animals would horrify anyone so please don't say that you wouldn't mind. I find that hard to believe. Though, please accept my sincere regret that you want to be considered "pro-choice" because those who profess that are not really for choice at all. They are for one choice, which is the right to kill unborn babies. You call it fetus in order to keep yourself from feeling regret that a life was killed. I do, however, have no problem with the pill that keeps an egg from implanting. This happens naturally all the time so if a pill will prevent it, I can live with that. However, once that egg implants and starts growing within, then the features and organs that make us human begin to form making this a life. Have you seen any pictures of a baby forming? Hard to look at those pictures and not view a baby. Take a moment and do a search for pictures of babies. Just let yourself look at those precious lives. Don't be afraid. However, if you have the guts to look, be prepared to let your conscience be your guide. Of course, you may decide not to take the time to look, which I understand is based in a fear that you will have to look at the reason that you are so wrong about what is a life.

Extremely touchy topic without doubt. I've had this discussion a few times with different groups of folks. (adults and young teens alike) and the general feeling is the same. It's a bit mixed. I try to not 'sway' someone's thoughts til I've heard their's, but eventually, they ask "What do you think?" hmmmmmmmmmmm.... I think so much. It's really not a 'cut and dry' answer.

1. I'm with Zook, I don't want government making too many decisions. So, with that thought, partially "Pro-Choice"

but

2. I've seen those surgeries and 'seens' the pain inflicted on those babies. Because that's what they are. Babies. Alive and wanting to be well. I can't tolerate the thought of that.

3. I can imagine, and I've actually seen, situations when for whatever the reason, a baby is going to be born with a birth defect that will make it have an extremely hard life. I can see some choices coming into play here......

I can imagine an accidental pregnancy where a term pregnancy is without a shadow of a doubt going to cause the death of one or both. I see some choices coming into play here......

I can imagine a young girl being violently raped and finding out she has a momento of that rape. I see some choices coming into play here....

But now, having said these thoughts, I also have seen young girls use abortions nearly as a birth control. Someone needs to step in and educate, and be a bit more demanding of their accountability.

We've all seen things that were not right. I don't need to make an infinite list, that's for sure.

Now, having said this. If someone asked me how I vote? And remember a vote is a yes or no. Not maybe. I vote NO ABORTIONS. I have to. I don't have a choice ..... I just have to. If you know me at all, you know how I feel about children. I feel deeply from the moment I hear that they are going to be born. At what stage are they at that time? No bigger than a speck, ...but to me, they are a child/grand child/niece/nephew/sweet baby that I want to love and help raise. They already have what it's going to take to be blonde, red headed, hot tempered, fair skinned, dark skinned, sweet, shy, outgoing and whatever color eyes that will look at me and make me melt.

Jessie

My husband David and I vote Pro-Life. Babies are blessings. It is a shame that some people choose to regret those blessings or expect perfection.

If we all start out the same and we do! How can we not give each unborn child the same advantanges of a safe birth?

Mother Theresa said it best. It is a poverty to decide that a child must die so that we can live how we wish".

Agreed

KHgal: yeah for Mother Teresa. That quote says it all!

Jessie: Thanks for your comment. As we all look at the big picture, all those scenerios and understand that there are many reasons why somwone would abort; yet come down to the real question. Within our hearts, we know that this is a life. Thanks so much for taking the reader thru it all.

Quite a thing to say, Junkyard Dog, that I don't know the difference between right and wrong. I have never, and will never, claim that taking a life is right, though I don't know that it's always wrong. My point is simply that there is no single agreed upon definition of "life". And yes, I am quite aware that at one point I was a glob of cells that wasn't "viable"... As I said before, I'm certainly glad my mother chose to have me, but I am respectful of the fact that it was her choice to make.

I feel strongly that abortion is a terrible thing. It snuffs out a life, and all the potential of that life. I would argue strongly against it to any woman considering it as an option, but ultimately it is her choice to make, not mine. Nor yours. And certainly not our Governments. We all view the world through our own thoughts, feelings, and opinions. It is only with great effort that we can glimpse, for a moment, what it must truly be like from another's view. More than the right to life, and the right to freedom (of choice, among other things), I believe with everything I am that no one has the right to force their particular view on someone else simply because they so arrogantly believe it is the only "right" way.

As for Ms. Kovac and her "sincere regret that [Heather] want(s) to be considered "pro-choice"..." Your claim that it isn't a choice at all is quite ironic, as you clearly wish to remove choice from other women. You can't have it both ways. Nevermind the condescension in that statement. Shall I come 'round and pat you on the head and imply that your way is inferior because it isn't my way? Bless your heart. You ask for a discussion and then refuse to make any attempt to see anothers perspective, going so far as to belittle others in such a passive aggressive way. What was the point of that, I wonder?

Across the street from the OK City Memorial is a statue is an area for people to sit and contemplate the site of a horrendous tradgedy. Two Words are inscribed on the statue: "Jesus Wept."

I think of that statue every time I see a debate on the life that we "judge" worthy to finish out their time in the womb.

I also think of the Nazis making a determination of who would live that day and who would go to the gas chambers. Was there any one individual more worthy than the other? No, but it was the commanding officers right to judge their worthiness for living.

If you are glad that your mother made that choice for you, isn't sad that others did not have the same priviledge?

Slowdown, you are welcome to express as I am expressing my beliefs. We can tell each other many thoughts and feelings as well as use stories and emotions to get our point across. Whether anyone reading or listening takes that opinion and uses it, listens or reads it at all is totally up to that person. My opinions and/or advice has always been freely given. What that person chooses to do with it is entirely up to them. I tell my kids, my husband, and my friends the same thing. I will express what I think and the acceptance or rejection of that is not my responsibility. Your views on the subject are valid. I accept what you wrote and I even agree with alot of what you wrote. So there is really no need to say that I refuse to see other's views. If you read my responses, I have agreed with many people's comments.

States used to make welfare recipients get sterilized after having baby after baby but then they said every woman has a right to her body, so they changed that. Here in Mtn Home they used to do that until the law was changed. Even if they are Mentally Challenged they have a right to make decisions about their body.

you do realize that the Pres. of Planned Parenthood came out and said that none of the money given to them by the federal goes toward abortions it goes to everything else they do.

Junkyard, you've certainly got a very black and white, jump to conclusions sort of approach, don't you? I've met people like you, and generally found them to be fairly happy, upbeat people, so maybe there's something to be said for an absolutist point of view. As for me, I happen to believe there are very few absolutes, moral or otherwise. The situations and circumstances that lead any given person to any given point are complex beyond understanding, and I find I have a hard time making a definitive statement about the outcome. For the record, I like what I see in the mirror just fine, but thanks for your concern.

Ms. Kovac, you are right, I was out of line to say that you aren't considering others' views, and I do apologize for that. I let one line irritate me on an already frustrating day. I do still think it was a bit of the moral "high-horse", but that's my interpretation of course, and I know I've done as much in the past and will likely do it again in the future. I do thank you for the interesting discussion. It's been awhile since I got to engage in a debate like this and I'm realizing I really missed it.

How about the fact that it is a women's right to choose. If she chooses to have an abortion, then she lives with that choice---right or wrong---for the rest of her life.

As far as being anti-abortion goes and bringing up how many childless couples would love to adopt. We have kids in the foster care system that have spent most of their lives in the system. The problem is that like a puppy, people want babies not older children.

Our welfare system is taxed to the max. Our foster care system has more children than qualified homes/foster parents.

Abortion is being responsible. It means you do not bring children into the world who cannot be supported, loved, etc. In this day and age, you have to be afraid about where a child will end up.

While many of you out there CHOOSE to judge for this act, it is not your place. By law, there is the freedom to CHOOSE. If we made this illegal, women would take 100 steps back. If your daughter was a victim of rape, would you feel the same way? If a test turned up a genetic defect that would greatly impare a child's life should a women not have the right to choose to terminate that pregnancy?

You cannot have it both ways folks. Abortion is a personal choice. Key word BEING PERSONAL!!

DID you know that not long ago at all, our service members qualified for "welfare" and some still qualify for food stamps.

I dont know what you guys think, but as long as planned parenthood councils people about the pros and cons of abortion and does not perform any what is the problem??????? or are you against them because they are not preaching against abortion only...........STERILIZATION sounds like a page out of BRAVE NEW WORLD............and we want to cut education........

This topic is tough. Being a mother I am so truly blessed. My two kids are the best things I have ever done. I do not agree I should be paying for someone else to have an abortion. I do not agree with women who use abortion as a form of birth control.

I will always be pro-CHOICE. We can't go back to the time when women didn't have the option and gave themselves abortions. Getting abortions by quack doctors in unsafe environments without proper sterile equipment. Crossing the border to Mexico to get abortions in the back of taxi cabs. Whether abortions are legal or illegal they are still going to happen. People will do desperate things when they feel they have no way out.

There are many amazing women that have made the choice to keep their babies and raise them as a single parent, as difficult and scary as that may be. I am proud to know some of them. Not all men stay around when they are told their one night fling or the women they were dating is having baby. I know men who have done amazing things and taken on being a daddy by themselves. I also know women who have had multiple abortions because they were careless and irresponsible and it breaks my heart. I have had to make the choice of unfriending a women for living her life like this. All it takes is a pill once a day. There is a birth control that can be given every 3 months. Pretty easy. There are so many ways to prevent this from happening. But mistakes happen and awful things happen. Women have health issues that could kill them. Women and girls are raped or are victims of incest. The list goes on.

I don't believe the government should be able to tell me what I can and cannot do with my body. It is our choice and that person has to live with that decision. Don't tell me what I can and cannot do with my body.

BoiseRN: Thanks for your comment. Your points are certainly valid and I agree that we don't want to go back to the day that women got bad abortions that threathen their lives. However, sadly, that day has not passed. It is still happening today. First point: A clinic in PA was shut down.

MSMBC reported: "A doctor whose abortion clinic was a filthy, foul-smelling "house of horrors" that was overlooked by regulators for years was charged Wednesday with murder, accused of delivering seven babies alive and then using scissors to kill them. Prosecutors said Gosnell made millions of dollars over three decades performing thousands of dangerous abortions, many of them illegal late-term procedures. Bags and bottles holding aborted fetuses "were scattered throughout the building," the district attorney said. "There were jars, lining shelves, with severed feet that he kept for no medical purpose."

Here's another example: "Half a dozen abortion clinics in Florida and Alabama have had their doors locked after state health boards became concerned by alleged rule and drug violations, including claims of an illegal late-term procedure in Florida." WorldnetDaily

Seeing the pictures of babies at 20 weeks and then seeing those same ones can be legally terminated just breaks my heart. (up to 28 weeks in most states)

It is horrible when a rape produces a pregnancy but it is not that babies fault. I can't advocate killing any human for any reason. And the biggest point that I make here is that if it is legal, though I disagree with that, we taxpayers should never have to pay for a woman to kill her baby.

I am not a person who feels that the govn't should be telling me what I can do with my body as well. But they already do too much of that anyways. What does it make to tell us it's okay to kill a living being and yet prevent me from buying food cooked with transfat? Or tell me that I can't smoke anywhere I want. They make it against the law to choose what I want to smoke, drink or eat. Even poor children can't sell lemonade from a make-shift lemonade stand in their yard for a couple of quarters withour a permit! Simple things that all people should have the right to choose, yet the govn't chooses for them. And now, the govn't has also decided to tell me that I have to buy insurance or pay a fine. Of course, it's all for my own good, right?

Kim

It sounds like you want women to go back 100 years when women were going to back alley Doctors who used wire coat hangers.

And it's ok for you to kill with your second hand smoke ?

I don't really think anyone wants that drastic back alley stuff to happen!

She votes NO Abortions, and so do I. That doesn't mean we/she/I don't see the other side. I ache for some of the things that are having to be dealt with. But I have to vote NO. I can't vote

"No, except when..... this or that" They don't have that choice. Just Yes or NO. It has to be NO. For us anyway.

Jessie

I am a man so what do i know??????? I THINK THE ABSOLUTE IS THE PROBLEM ON THIS PART OF THE QUESTION.....tHE PART WE STARTED OUT WITH SHOULD THE GOVERNMENT PAY I WOULD HAVE TO SAY NO.......AS A MATTER OF NATIONAL CONSCIENCE.......I COULD MAKE AND ARGUMENT FOR TIMES WHEN THEY SHOULD AND BE REIMBURSED BY THE PERPETRATOR.BUT THAT IS AND ARGUMENT ALL ITS OWN.

AND YES I AM PRO CHOICE.........FOR THE REASONS ALREADY STATED.....YOU DONT NEED MY SPIN ON IT ITS BEEN SAID......HAVE A GREAT DAY

I am pro-life myself, but the law is the law, what I don't understand is why the father has no rights? The child is not only the mothers but also the fathers. The mother can choose to abort and the Dad has no recourse, but when she keeps the child he has to pay child support??? Sounds like a double standard. To me life begins at conception, be it day one or 180, it makes no difference to me.

One, taxpayer money should not be spent on abortion.

Two, governments should not be involved in the process. If a woman wants to get one, then let them. Government intervention does little more than stir up emotions and give people a floor to rationalize their meddling. So this should be a non-point in the end.

Organized religion should stay out of it as well. Their continued protests are just signs of how insecure they are. If they so right, truth comes out in the end and needs not their endorsement.