Negotiations means Bribery

Sad post today Kim.

Are we just supposed to go along with this and say it is "okay?" This is a very sad lesson for our youth. Welcome to socialist rule but we will still call it a democracy because few will ever rock the boat.

It is nice to know that the holidays are more important than the US as a nation. Our economic future is grim at best if this spending should continue. I watched Obama at his "press conference" where he was so happy he had obtained the needed votes for this. He said Medicare would be better and this plan would save the nation TRILLIONS!!! Just another form of welfare and Governmental control that WE get to pay for. Yes indeed---CHANGE YOU CAN BELIEVE IN!

They are all a bunch of crooks and belong in jail in Arizona. That would teach "em" in one summer! Sad days ahead folks.

Jackals? Far too nice.

Check this out.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/34524436/ns/us_news-military/?GT1=43001

More change we can believe in.

Some rays of sunshine though. A couple conservative senators are attacking the validity of the health care bill based on constitutional grounds. One for sure has some legs since it questions the part of the bill that makes it impossible for any future administration from making any changes. Constitutional law makes it illegal to encumber future legislators with something they can't change. Just look at how the democrats manipulated the laws in Mass. to keep a democrat in the senate up on the inevitable death of Ted Kennedy. And there still is the questions how some senators were bought off for their vote. Nice to know that we as a conservative state will now be saddled with the tax burden of a liberal state. I see now that the Obama administration wants us all to share the wealth but there is no expectation for the liberals to help shoulder the debt.

VOTE THE BUMMS OUT IN 2010!!!!!!!!!!

Politics as usual,just out in the open this time. Nothing new or unusual if you've live as long as I have(and paid any attention).

I have been way too busy to investigate the inner workings of this latest health care bill. I need to read up on it and hopefully find a source that can just say what it is and not give a bunch of worthless propaganda.

Some of the major issues facing the U.S. are adverse selection and moral hazard. Adverse selection is where healthy, cost saving individuals forego health insurance. This, in turn, leads to only the sickest, weakest, and least responsible will take advantage of the service. There are assumptions left out but thats the cliff notes version. Moral hazard is where those without health insurance are the most careful and so do their best to avoid using the service knowing that the consequences can be severe. Those who are sick already will take advantage of the service and be reckless. This reckless behavior will result in more visits and more severe injuries.

The point is that for the current system to be repaired (if it is actually needed), the incentives for being healthy have to be greater. Everybody paying exorbitant costs in the form of premiums, taxes, or other fees just tells someone that no matter what they do they will still pay dearly so why give a darn. Proposals that I have read about do not address these issues. I have left out plenty but that is my take on it.

There was a time when Senator's lost their careers over bribery and back-room deals. There was a time when this happened but it was kept secret and if discovered the people would slaughter them. (figure of speech) I'm am so profoundly sad that this kind of stuff is accepted and allowed in the name of the better "good". I'm not surprized so don't think I am living in a fantasy world. I'm just very very sad.

Deals being made to get a bill passed has been going on much longer then Obama's Presidency. It even happened when Bush was in Office.

The really stupid part of all this is that the insurance industry is what really needs to be fixed but nobody is going to go up against them (the insurance industry) because they give the folks on the Hill a lot of money. So, we get Obama's healthcare reform but it still does not fix the problem because the problem is still the insurance industry itself. All this is going to do is tax the middle class to death---not solve the problem.

It is really funny how Obama states that Medicare will remain the same. Funny, 2-3 weeks ago he said there would be cuts to fund his plan. Obama also states this will save trillions of dollars. I do not see how. It is just another form of Governmental Aid funded by YOU and I aka the taxpayers of this "democratic" nation. Democratic my dupa/keister! All of the crooks need to go and have needed to go for a very long time. The fact that this has gone on does not make it okay. Passing legislation that does not allow changes---what is that? This guy is bad news. I am glad I did not vote for him.

On thing I find interesting is the exposing (no pun intended) of Larry Craig in Minneapolis, sickening as it may be, the timing of the "exposure" and his being run out of office leads one to wonder if he was a road block. He was on the appropriates committee, so methinks he did not want to play ball, so he was ousted. If this is true it makes one wonder to what extent will they go to push their adgenda on us.

Here's a few questions for you.... I am sure I will get a big response. lol !

1. What do you think Obama should of done to save the economy?

2.What could he have done differently for the banks?

3. How do you think we should pay for all this debt we now have?

MsM:

You cannot "save" the economy. The situation we are in is due to overspending (for a very-very long time) and money being too cheap. Greed also plays a role as well. In order to "save" the economy we will HAVE TO go back to the way things were when my grandparents were young. In other words, no credit cards and tight credit. If you do not have the money...you do not get it. However, our Government wants us all poor, broke and stupid because then they OWN us. We will be at the mercy of our Government worse than we are now.

The banks NEVER should have been bailed out. See, in the "real" world if a person is in business and they cannot make money they go out of business (forced or voluntary). These bank CEO's took MILLIONS and MILLIONS in bonus bucks for years and were doing a REALLY crappy job! Where in the "real" world are you rewarded for doing a REALLY **** poor job? Then, our Government goes and bails their sorry butts out. Who bails you and I out if we make a bad business deal? Who loans us money if we do NOT have the resources to pay it back? The banks should have gone under. They have just ended up screwing all of America anyway after they said they would make things better for consumers. YEAH RIGHT. 30% plus interest rates are reallllllllllllllllly fair.

As for the debt we have now...I think that Obama's wages should be garnished until the end of time and that he and his buds should be forced to pay it back. I also think that Obama, his family (legal and illegal family members) and all of his pals on the Hill should be

FORCED to use this SAME crappy healthcare. If it is good enough for me...IT SHOULD BE GOOD ENOUGH FOR ALL OF THEM.

This all really makes my blood boil. Does nobody have a backbone anymore? The point regarding Larry Craig is interesting. I never looked at it that way before. It would not surprise me if he was set up and the cop involved was a plant and paid off. This entire thing is disgusting. We do not live in a democracy. We are RULED. I hope we all wake up soon.

What a great holiday. Another "Man caused disaster" nearly happened on the day of our saviors birth. Thank God the device failed to operate correctly and all it truly did was give this TERRORIST 3rd degree burns in the crotch. Maybe God was watching over the 270+ people on that plane today and gave the TERRORIST what he deserved. And to the person on the plane who jumed this idiot...THANK YOU. This person deserves a medal but betcha it doesn't happen with this president. Was quite suprised when the administration actually called this an attempted terrorist act. Well that might stand until the exalted one finishes his vacation. Funny how for the past several weeks we've been totally absorbed by health care and another stimulus package and what do the bad guys do. THEY TAKE ADVANTAGE of the diversion. Now that we aren't watching them diligently they attempt an attack on Americans ON AMERICAN SOIL, ON CHRISMAS DAY

Think people!!!...these TERRORISTS stillw ant to hurt you and me and will take any chance...any lax in security...any diversion from them...TO KILL US. get a clue...until we put the effort into killing them FIRST..where they live, they will continue to try to kill us HERE.

Go ahead censored and all you other red bleeding liberals. Jump on this and explain to me how this is all Bush's fault...I know you're dying to!!

Hey Bazooka,

Didn't want to offend him my mispelling his name. So henceforth he will be known as "Little Sheet Head" At least if God willing he won't be able to reproduce after his unfortunate accident.

As for the current messiah, I will not refer to him as a black man anymore. He's half white so I think I'll take that tack and see if it stirs the pot any. I like how liberals tend to embrace that part of them they think will give them the most votes. Kerry did it by trying to be a war hero, now Obama tries it with being black. Although in part both arguments are true, neither were truly what they were claiming to be. Remember Obama saying his administration was going ot be transparent. Well I guess it's partly coming true now that a majority of the people out there are starting to see through him and finding his hidden agenda. Not that those of us who have a finely tuned BS meter needed to be told this guy is all flash and speeches and couldn't hold his own against some of our finest legislators when it comes to running a nation. This man has never truly been in charge of ANYTHING in his life. He knows NOTHING about what kind of intestinal fortitude (GUTS for you neanderthal lefties out there)to send young men and women into combat to WIN. He no sooner wants to win in Afghanistan than I want to turn my hair pink. He bends and sways in the political wind. He promises one thing and delivers another. You can't beleive a word coming from his lips.

I was just informed by my beuatiful bride that the PC term for the President is "Bi-racial" my bad.

Sleep Well for tomorrow you may be flying with a terrorist.

For one, why dont we find out what the core objective of being in Afghanistan is and then move upon that swiftly and get out. I know that simple, objective minds like that are rare but existence of idiots does not that they are right or correct.

About the economy, citizens and Govt. would be best served by lowering their expectations and standards. This sounds short-sighted but really when one gets to the core of most issues in today's economy it comes down to everybody wanting too much. They are not satisfied with making ends meet and living ordinary lives. Govts. want to be everybody's hero or insider connection to getting their special interests appeased. Cutting back on credit and making it harder for special interests/lobbyists to get what they want would be a big step forward.

Even if this did happen, no one would have the smarts or rationality to accept. Economic policies take a minimum of one year to take effect. No one can handle that it is not instant rewards. The problem did not occur overnight so why should the solution have to be that way as well. Changes to credit policy would take months if not years to filter down from the federal reserve/SEC to the banks/lenders and finally to the consumer. The adjustment process would not be instantaneous and so ordinary individuals would seek reform. These reforms that they request are granted by opportunistic politicians like Obama. People need to learn some rationality and patience. Had they not demanded reforms at Fannie Mae in the mid-90's (in fear of impending recession) this current dilemma may never have occurred.

Twil:

So your response to the problems of today are that we should lower OUR standards? We expect too much in your eyes from our Government, etc. If we expect less and get less then we will not be upset right? How about if our Government and elected officials do their jobs and represent the people...you know...like they say they do? How about if we have accountability in Government and STANDARDS? Most of America has lowered their standards to all time lows----LAST ELECTION PROVED THAT! Can our standards really get much lower?

I for one expect more and will not lower my standards to that of those in DC who declare that they "represent" me. Few in DC represent us regular American folks anymore. To hell with lowering my standards! It is time for accountability and some honesty. I find it pretty sad that a young man, college educated, such as yourself would even say such a thing. You are our future! What kind of future does this country have if this crap gets worse and we continue to lower our standards? If you have grandparents who are still alive---talk to them.

Amen Mike!

This bailout crap is not even close to over. Bend over folks! Take it all like a "man." GMAC also has their hands out today as well.

I will tell all of you this. These banks took money to refinance homes. I work for an attorney that does loan mods. These banks are NOT working with the people. They have fax machines that never work. You can hardly ever get someone NOT in India on the phone (or that speaks good English). They do not return calls and will hardly ever respond in writing. It was all one big scam. Figure in what they have done with the credit cards and they have screwed most of us royal and with our elected officials blessings. Yes...change I believe in. Soon we will all be writing our mortgage checks to the Government...if we are lucky enough to hold on to our homes that is. What a bunch of BULL!!!! And all in the name of "lower standards." Pretty scary stuff if you ask me.

So if you think we shouldn't of bailed out the banks, what do you think we should of done differently? How could we have saved the economy? Don't tell me we should of elected a Republican, they had their chance and blew it! Maybe they can rebuild the Republican Party to save the Country and get a Republican President in place like George W. ha ! Sorry for the laugh....... You will never know what party I stand for !

I don't know if I am doing the right thing but sometimes I don't vote because there is no one I want to give my vote to........

To be quite honest I did not vote in this last election

Well to let the cat out of the bag (hiding my face :( ............... I voted for Clinton because I thought he had lots of energy (which he had for Monica HA !) he seemed to be uplifting and refreshing in bringing a change...Big mistake voting for him.

I voted for George Bush Sr however didn't vote for W.

I know if you don't vote then you cannot complain and I also know that every vote counts. When I don't vote it means I don't want to give my vote to anyone.... Right or Wrong that's just me !

According to Twil we just need to lower our standards which I guess means we need to not have any and accept these crooks for what they are. If this is what they are teaching our young people in college...we are screwed as a country and as human beings. And to think that people think all of this garbage is true...

WOW! We really are up the creek in our boat made in China.

Amen to that brother!!

Lowering our standards? I think that is not a new idea when you consider that in order for people to pass certain tests to get into certain fields, they have to lower the standards. Can you think of a few areas that applies?

I for one would rather have a burly strong man pick me up and take me out of a burning building as opposed to being dragged out by a feet because some people passed with lower standards. Just my personal preference. (Time: 7:10am)

Its been awhile but lowering one's standards does not mean that one should translate that to govt. personnel. What I mean by lowering one's standards is that Americans all want to be upper Middle-class with an SUV, season tickets to the local sports team, 52-inch big screen, a sizeable nest egg, and kids that can attend Stanford, Yale, or MIT. Economic policy is designed to be an across the board type of thing where it assists a broad spectrum of individuals. If those individuals want more and more, these economic policies have to procure increasing amounts of funds.

As we all know, there is only so much money in the nation. Money and/or resources are not infinite. Instead of being prudent and only spending what they have to maintain stability, the present administration (and most others in the modern era) tries to appease everybody's financial shortcomings. There are some that are true victims but most dug their own grave. They may not have been able to predict the future but most consumers knew that there was risk involved in relying on credit and interest-only mortgages. Now that they have failed, it is not everybody's responsibility to ensure that they maintain their once-Middle Class lifestyle. So what, they have fallen on hard times. I was homeless for a month once and I did cry out to the world for help.

Being somewhat more frugal would exceedingly unpopular with special interest groups and most citizens regardless of their political affiliation. Yet, politics and govt. should be about making the best decision not winning a popularity contest. They would look bad and their approval ratings would bottom out but in the years to come the rewards would substantial.

It comes down to patience and rationality on the part of the individual. Instead of demanding instant fixes by way of govt., why not simply make the best of what one has and move on. Not everyone can live the high life. I am biased of course. I grew up poor and dont find that repulsive. Life was rough sometimes but it helps me to appreciate what I have now. Overall, just some frugality on the part of Americans and their leaders would help the economy.

Uh huh. If it were only that easy twil. If only.

I leave out politicians in my posts primarily because it is well known that they are wasteful. You and countless others have already clued the world in on that aspect of the problem. I tire of people playing helpless victim. They act like this is medieval Europe and they are helpless to avoid all the undesirable aspects of life. It is the fault of politicians and leaders why their life does not work out the way that they want it to. I get the feeling from reading these blogs and many others that people feel that it is the responsibility of govt. to make everybody upper Middle-class. Govt. should be the insurance policy against any sort of adversity. Maybe I am cold, unfeeling, etc. but hard times happen. Economies have ups and downs no matter who tries to steer the ship.

Instead of putting the blame solely on politicians, why not think about it and control what you can. Politicians are just like TV execs. They gauge what the public wants to hear and they make it happen. They find the issues that will make them look like heroes and go for it. It matters not if their solution will hurt the nation or state in the long run. They scramble to get the quick fix on things now and forget the future. The public is guilty of being short sighted too. They will not stand for someone taking their time and thinking long term. They had to give up their country club membership and so now they are out to get action to make that a reality again. Overall, I feel that people always want to blame somebody. I could rant for days about politicians and be justified as well as the rest of you. That amount of b%%%%ing and complaining is simply going to raise my blood pressure. Changes in the political realm dont occur instantly. Changing my spending habits and lifestyle can be done a lot quicker. If I choose to rely on credit and then go belly up, well then I have no one else to blame. I feel that personal responsibility and accountability has gone by the way side. What is so wrong with realizing that as Americans we are not perfect?

Finally, I think that politicians need to have some back bone. They need to enact the unpopular but financially sound legislation. Yes, their approval ratings will go down the toilet and they will not be heroes. Yes, on blogs such as these the public will complain ceaselessly about how they are not doing enough. The public will have to accept that life does not always have the soft landing. Being frugal will have benefits. Such as long term stability and having resources in the future. Inflation and decreased bond ratings will hurt everybody if this rampant borrowing spree does not cease. No, it will not instant and quantifiable. It will take years to rear its ugly head but once it does, the damage will be irreparable. Theories may state otherwise but Argentina is a great example of what will happen. I tire of everyone complaining about this and then crying that the govt. has not done enough. The govt. is not society's financial security blanket. Overall, it would hurt society in the short term to stop the spending but in the long run the economy could stabilize.

One fix to this issue of govt. waste would be for the voting public to not demand this financial propping up. Let banks fail, let 401ks go to nothing, let govt. pensions go to nothing. That is harsh, I know. Giving the govt. license to keep borrowing to make these a reality is part of the issue. From these bills come special interest groups and pork.

The initial cause for the bill may be people losing their retirements. Rather legit at first. Next, Congress has to approve it. Lets say that the absolutely necessary portion is $100 million. This $100 million only goes to the retirees. Congress knowing that most people do not read legislation and are not cognizant of its effects, add in extras. You and many others have reported this enough for me to leave the rest out. My point is that the cause or beginning action was society demanding the bailout. If society (both poor and rich) did not demand these then this avenue would not be available.

I hope in my career as an economist to help people be better informed about economic issues. Not to let radio hosts, newspaper columnists, politicians, armchair experts, etc. sway them to their side. To give them the objective, cold, hard truth. Once they have the info, it is up to them to figure the rest out. A better informed public would sniff out the issues that you have spoke of many times and demand otherwise.

People seem, for reasons unknown to me, to fail to understand that once you give govt. license to be involved in a matter they stay. As a society, we must stem the tide. This is not simply because we are in fear of big brother. My objection is that society needs to figure out these matters on our own and not be pawning it off on them. Life is tough and why not overcome the challenges. The private sector is corrupt too but why not give it a chance to fix some things instead of constant govt. intervention.

Govt. does have resources and authority to enact broad policy and change over the economy that the private sector can only dream of. It comes down to instant rewards. People like to hear that a quick fix is on its way rather than gradual improvement. I am not the most patient person either. Yet, in 31 years I have found that careful planning is better than knee jerk reactions.

Some will claim that we have lower rates of taxation than other countries. That may be true but I care not. Just because we can persist and survive at 20% means nothing. We could continue to exist, however miserably, if that was to be increased to 50%. The point is that taxation should be to fund basic govt. activities and only that. I have lectured on consumers being wasteful so no need to beat that horse again. Stripping the federal, state, and county govts. down to simply what is necessary would be a step in the right direction. Not every matter in life needs govt. oversight and administration behind it.

Some will say that govt. intervention helps when one needs general or broad impact. Such as the Civil Rights Act of 1964 or emergency funding for AIDS research in the mid-80's. Those raise no red flags with me but the last 10 years have been one of seemingly perpetual govt. intervention at all levels. Overall, when the public sector is involved there are vastly more fingers in the pie than if not. Hiring staff, paying them benefits, writing up legislation, holding meetings, and the inevitable process of adjustment all cost money. Kind of a domino effect. If we allow intrusion on one issue then why not all other issues. Fundamentally, people are going to have to be more accountable and be willing to let things not be perfect. Govt. is not the fix-all for all undesirable situations.

I guess I must be heartless or something. Watched the damage to Haiti today. Sad. However, we have people in our own country who suffer from a lack of medical care, etc. and who are homeless, jobless, etc. Yet we send aid and money to Haiti! Call me crazy but with our debt out of control, no jobs and all of the above problems...perhaps we need to fix what is broken here and help OUR OWN (just like other places who do not send aid, etc.) before we send all of this money to these other places. Wonder how much more we will owe China after this one.

Then------the banks plan to pay out RECORD bonus bucks in the next few days to the CEO's and executives that have run those banks into the ground and put them in the shape they are today. Priceless. FLUSH!!!!

Twil:

Many of us do conserve and do not overspend (yadda-yadda-yadda). However, those that do conserve still have to pay for the ones who do not. Those who work pay for the food stamps, Section 8, welfare pay and all of that. So, where does this get those of us with any sense? Not a **** thing! They just tell us to work harder and more for less money with more travel/expenses. Do you see those in DC doing the cut back thing? Hell no!

So, we are not on the "poor me" bandwagon. We are tired of working hard with not a **** thing to show for it. That is the bottom line.

Perfect example. I have taken 2 pay cuts in the last 12 months IN HOPE that it will keep me employed for a little longer. Did the price of gas go down? No? Is food any cheaper? No. Why work so hard? You still end up with the big screw in the end come tax time because the taxing structure was redone. In other words...MAKE LESS AND PAY MORE.

My primary complaint is with these people who were living above their means. They were well aware of the risk and potential for disaster. To them, it was an educated risk that had great benefits and minimal costs. Now their 401k is shrinking, their nest egg (whose value was inflated to begin with), their college fund, and their three brand new cars are going to have to shrink to two. In the face of crisis, they do the natural thing and try to repair the situation so that they can maintain the upper-Middle Class lifestyle. Again, knowing that in a less robust, less boom-or-bust, economy they would never have attained that level of prestige or opulence. Their expectations of the high life can be traced back entirely to the economic boom.

How do they repair this? They cant borrow or take the situation in their own hands. If that was an option, it would have been exhausted awhile ago. They cry to govt. (state and federal) to bail them out. For those who dont explicitly say it, the politicians know that if they dont act on this need they stand zero chance of re-election. Doing nothing and letting the economy flounder would anger everyone in the short term. Saving the hides of these wanna-be upper middle class types once sets the precedence that upon it happening again the same action should be taken.

Saving more and spending less is not what I mean by conservation, sorry. I mean that Americans need not be dependent on constant govt. intervention in every financial dilemma. The current crisis was not caused by the consumer but they seem to be getting a get out of jail free card. I dont recall bankers making deals with themselves.

One final comment on this or at least I hope so. An economic stimulus of any sort is going to take awhile to show benefits. First, it has to dreamed up and legislated. Next the monetary authorities have to appropriate and then all of the paperwork and red tape has to be drawn up. I am omitting plenty of additional elements of the process. The point being that it is unrealistic for Americans to expect to see benefits in less than a year.

Now, Obama and his mates know this. The speeches may say that the people will see rewards almost instantaneously. That is simple politics and good salesmanship. Telling the nation that they have to wait a year to be rescued is unacceptable. Americans seem to have not the patience or fortitude to pick themselves up and make the best of it.

Lastly, a stimulus is fine if and only if there was a high probability of economic growth in the future. Simply stated, there is not and this crisis will continue for some time. I am the eternal optimist but simple honesty is best. Putting a very expensive band-aid on this issue seems a bit short sighted. The costs to this are going to be in the future. Those costs are going to be even more difficult to overcome than the current crisis could ever dream of being. Americans would be well served to elect those who can take a little heat. Those who can weather the storm of criticism. Instead of caving in to everybody's incessant need for money. The buck has to stop somewhere. Being the jerk now and saving the nation an even bigger crisis later.

I am not sure how one would make Americans become more independent of govt. intervention. The federal govt. was virtually nonexistent in everyday life prior to the time of Teddy Roosevelt. Yes, life was hard and the economy less stable than it is now. Purely speaking of economics, the ups and downs were greater in number and intensity but they settled to a stable equilibrium that worked for all.

Besides forceful action, there has to be a way of convincing society that they need not third party inclusion in every matter. A third party does not always the same interests.

Twil:

I am sorry but I fail to see where "consumers" have obtained this "get out of jail free card" that you speak of.

The Big 3 and all of these banks seem to be holding the cards and bonus checks too!

Consumers, with better than average credit are being screwed! When you take out a credit card with a fixed rate of 5.9%...you expect it to remain that way unless you DO NOT pay. Period. So please, remind me again how and when we got this "get out of jail free" card.

I am sad to see what they teach in US colleges these days and it makes me fear for our future. Perhaps you will get the point when you get out in the "real world" and have to find work. Or your pay is cut so that you can remain employed for maybe another 6 months. Or you go into the office and the doors are locked and there is a nice little sign which indicates they (where you are employed) has closed and they failed to leave you your last check. Or...

Why bother? Your answer is to lower our standards and accept what is. BS Twil! Complete BS. It is thinking just like that that has put us where we are today and put the people who are in charge in charge and KEPT them in charge. Grow a set already kid. This world is going to eat you up and spit you out.

First, I am 31 and have lived on my own for 12 years so dont regard me as some naive kid. I have a 10 year old son and have enough horror stories to write a book about concerning the ordeal of paying child support. Enough said.

Second, my thoughts are my own. There is no indoctrination going on. No great conspiracy. The economics classes that I have taken have been almost entirely devoid of politics. No situation can be entirely free of it but its close enough to zero. Dont blame Boise State. If the answer to complex economic issues was so clear, there would be no need for the Treasury Dept, Federal Reserve, and most Govt. agencies. They are complex and subjective so differing opinions will always exist. What people ultimately desire from an economy is not always clear. How to get to this elusive enigma is even less clear. Finally, there are so many competing interests for finite resources that its tough to find a solution that satisfies all parties.

Every time that a govt. or society takes action to correct an economic crisis, it usually comes in the form of injecting liquid assets into the economy or stimulating spending. The amount injected into the economy depends on the demands of the recipients (society) and how willing the giving party is willing to dispense. The first element is the demand of society. If society did not feel that it needed rescued, the stimulus or like action would not happen. If society demanded $100 million to stimulate the economy and still lead functional lives. Not poor, not destitute, no one starves, no one loses health insurance, no kids lose anything. Now, lets say that there is an option for this stimulus to be $250 million. That amount would lead to the majority of affected people being able to continue their middle-class lifestyle. They dont have to give up season tickets to BSU, still get to have two SUV's, and other exorbitant unnecessary luxuries.

Some will say that average Americans have no impact on how much politicians appropriate in these economic stimuli. Politicians know what the majority of people want. What will make them look like heroes? Its a simple answer, money. Everybody wants it and the need is universal. What better way to please everyone. Oh, but this has a cost. The more that one borrows, the greater the cost. Overall, Americans should demand less govt. borrowing and less from items like a Stimulus. If you are in such support of these pro-Govt. borrowing measures, why have you been so critical of the current Stimulus package? Are you willing to let the govt. continue to borrow? Knowing that the cause of the borrowing is society demanding it.

I will make it short but i dont feel that govt. intervention is solely because of power-hungry autocrats deciding to meddle where they dont belong. Whether or not the need exists, society demands it and expects it. If they did not, then why as soon as the economic crisis came into their consciousness did they demand it. There are plenty of blog entries, interviews, newspaper columns, radio segments, etc. where citizens voiced this need for a parachute. I had conversations with people of varying levels of education who foresaw govt. intervention and wanted it. They were both Dems and Reps. so no political element.

I am alongside of you in this. I dont think that these stimulus plans are absolutely necessary. If I could be assured that they would only be used for those things that they are prudent and necessary. That is a pipe dream but that can be elaborated upon at a later date.

Ron Paul is OK but his idea of the Federal Reserve is laughable. Not that I know everything but I could eat him alive if we were ever to debate the topic of the Federal Reserve. Oh well, its just opinions in the end.

Taxation is an issue of riding the fine line. Too much or too little. Yes, there is too little. Now as Americans that concept cant exist but I dont play that ignorance card. I dont support current measures but I know that taxation does not solely to screw over the citizens and make the few rich.

Here is one for you Bazooka.

I talked to my friend in FL today. She said that 2,000 people from Haiti will be "evacuated" into FL...many are already in Miami. They will get full benefits, assitance with a place to live and money and oh yes...help with EMPLOYMENT. They have so many of the people from Haiti in Miami that they have now had to "evacuate" them to Orlando. They get free hotel stays at the Omni Rosen until they can find them a place to go! How do you like that? They get treated better than most Americans and get better care. You do not hear about this on CNN or any of the others. Interesting huh? I thought so.

I am heartless but oh well. Haiti, shmaiti.... Will our aid make that country come out of its self-imposed dungeon. No, it will still be North America's version of Chad or Bangladesh. Sending over aid to simply keep them liveable seems like a waste to me.

Is it ironic that Brown won by the same 52% margin that Obama won by in 08? At that time Obama and the democrats told the nation that the voters had spoken and they wanted CHANGE! Now comes a gentleman into congress who ran on a platform of CHANGE...a change away from Chicago politics and back room vote buying. Does this send ANY sort of message to Obama and the dems in conmgress? And if it does, do they get it. I do know one thing, the democrat machine eats their own. The finger pointing and back biting in the days just before and again last night at who was at fault for losing "Teddy's seat". Coakley blames Obama, Obama and the terrible twosome of Pelosi and Reid blam Coakley. It's fun to watch. As NOTHING is ever a democrats fault. I even read a post by one of the democrats in congress say they could now go back to blaming Bush for the economic problems we have now. How telling is that, that the democrats can't face teh fact that they were in charge of congress the last two years of the Bush administration, they have been in charge of congress AND the white house for a year now and things are worse than when we started in January of 2009. The president that ran on the stump of change, of transparency, of no taxes and LOWER taxes for the middle class has taken back every campaign promise, has paid off his political cronies and has crawled back into the liberal cloak that surrounds him. He talks a good speech but my grand dad always said, "with politicians, don't beleive anything they tell ya and only half of what ya see them do!"

Well, Bazooka...I have been called many things but "radical,white-girl" has never been one of those things. Thank you! It warms my heart to think of myself in such a way!

I lived through 2 really bad storms in Florida and NEVER got a free room in any hotel. As a matter of fact...mention the word "storm" and the rates for those same hotels DOUBLE! Water, wood and other storm stuff goes up as well...IF you can find it that is.

Yep---I guess I am a bit "bitter." I am tired of funding people who do not belong here (people who are not citizens). I am tired of all of our jobs going overseas and to places with "cheaper" labor. I am tired of working to pay for people who should not be here in the first place. I am tired of funding the education of terrorists. The list goes on and on. Enough really is enough already. Really!

OM, not to split hairs but i agree in part with your comments. However lets use the politically incorrect term, Illegal immigrants. My mother in-law is not a citizen of the US. She was born in Canada and has retained her citzenship there even though she is married to a US citizen and can LEGALLY remain here. Not because she doesn't love this country, she does. She has two children in the military currently serving active duty roles. Her thoughts on getting her citizenship is based mostly because she would be required to know more about the constitution and the United States than most high school seniors. Her patriotism and the fact that she ahs lived and worked here most of her adult life means NOTHING. She watched the presidential debates, kept up on the candidates knowing she wouldn't be able to vote. It's funny that she sends no money back to Canada, never asked for welfare, pays taxes on her wages here INCLUDING social security of which she will NEVER see a dime of yet all she asks for is a place to call home. Let those that are here illegally go back and re-enter the correct way, Pay taxes, and quite being a drain on the welfare of the goverment, both local and federal.

I get the whole thing about amnesty. I dont agree with it. That is not because I am an old conservative type either. American was founded upon immigrants. They did not all enter the "right" way. My objection to granting amnesty is on a more fundamental level.

Most middle class white Americans consider themselves too good for manual labor. With an influx of immigrants who no longer have the obstacles of having a green card or other administrative/legal issues, the market is going to shrink even further. They are willing to work for less. This is not because they are trying to screw us. It comes down to expectations. They are ok living a very simple, poor existence. Making $8.00 per hour is an insult to a typical white male but they are more than happy to work for that. The point is that the influx of immigrants will simply make Americans more lazy than they are. It will give them less incentive to take these menial jobs than before.

One thing wrong with some of your thinking Twil. If the legalize the illegals then employers are gonna have to claim them as real workers, pay minimum wage, workman's comp and unemployment insurance. So do you think more people or less people will have jobs?...

Most white bread, working class Americans only work for minimum wage if they are forced to. They consider it insulting and below them. MHB, you do have a point. Currently, employers can pay them under the table and have them be anonymous as you know and acknowledge.

I may be wrong but it would seem that in the face of rising payroll costs (i.e paying workmens comp. and other payroll items versus not), the business owner would do the logical thing and pay as little as they can without sacrificing quality. As we know, Latino immigrants are willing to work for less so it would logical that Americans would get squeezed out. If Americans are not as arrogant as I have observed, then this idea may not materialize.

Its a bit of fallacy to think that everybody can have a high paying job. I find it strange that society tells kids that if they dont go to a 4-year school and endure academia that they have failed. What is so wrong with working a trade? I think that is a small part of why most Americans view menial jobs as below them.

I disagree with you Twil. Having just filled a part time position in my store that pays barely above minimum wage, I know how many "white bread" are suffering under this president and are willing to work for whatever they can get to have a job. One job, part time and I had over 75 applicants. All were adults, as the job requires, and most of them were 30+. This may fall under "forced to" but things being what they are, there isn't much choice.

I was born into what most people call, "white trash". Lived in a mobile home park, two very staunch blue-collar parents who cared little for politics, both parents are former alcoholics, heavy smokers, and represent the old way of being. I come from a long line of men who serve in the military and then go on to working drywall, stucco, framing, or carpentry. The women are tough, no nonsense types who work in nursing homes, hotels, or home health providers. No fancy degrees. No one has left the Valley for any length of time. Simply stated, the family is one of modest living, hard work, and keeping to themselves.

The point is that among my many family members are the types that I speak of. My brothers and cousins are the types that only work janitorial, fast-food, or restaurants when there is no other option. They come home and then cry the blues about their job being so degrading and beneath them. At the first available moment, they will drop this low-wage, demeaning job and move back into something that pays worth a lick. They also feel that the employer could pay them more and just wants to screw them over. They feel like it is indentured servitude. The employer could pay them more and do fine but it is greedy and wants to keep it all to themselves. Well, MHB you are the employer so what would you say to these types? I am not so ignorant to think that every employer pays low wages simply out of greed. There is more to the story.

Another example, I worked for Apple for three years. I came to know a lot of young people quite intimately. They came to Apple solely because they felt that working manual labor was beneath them. They felt that they were too smart to be working in restaurants, construction, or heaven forbid agriculture. The pay was OK but they craved the prestige of telling their friends that they worked for a high-tech giant. This is supposed to mean that they aspired to heights greater than any construction job could ever yield.

It has been my experience that white bread Americans feel that the low paying jobs are beneath them. The current economic crisis is misleading. They are only doing it because there is no other suitable option. Given a chance, they would gladly take their "rightful" spot at a higher paying job. They feel entitled to these higher paying jobs. Again, from your viewpoint MHB you may see things differently. To each their own.

On another note, I would think that the govt. should promote vocational education more. They should not dedicate funds to it but let Americans know that going into carpentry, auto mechanics, etc. can be rewarding and adequate. These jobs that every one wants like banker, real estate exec., Computer programmer are not as great as people think. They are high pressure and prone to major turnover. These three mentioned are the first to go when the economy is not in boom mode. I like a little bit more stability than that but I guess I am just weird.

This is good and a must read. It explains a lot with respect to Obama and how he runs things.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/34983042/ns/business-answer_desk

Bouncer, you are 100% correct in your most recent post. Gone ar the days where a person (guy/gal) gets to CHOOSE a job. Here are the days where you take what you can get and hope like hell that it pays your bills.

I have a college degree. I also know that my current job is not going to last much longer. Do I want to clean bathrooms and sweep floors or work fast food? Not really but that is what put me through part of my college years and if it was "good enough" back then it will be "good enough" now. As long as I can pay my bills and what I HAVE to do is legal...nothing is "below" me (again, as long as it is legal work/employment and my payroll checks do not bounce). You do what you have to do to keep a roof over your head and rubber under your feet and food on the table. It is a long walk to Boise or TF for work.

I applaude you OM for being one of what seems like the few that believe ANY job is better than NO job.

Twil, construction trades, auto mechanics? These too are some of the occupations that go away when the economy goes bad. I have a good friend that does HVAC and builds houses...out of work. I have mechanic shops that do business with me that are scrambling to make ends meet. my business does well because people fix their own stuff instead of buying new or taking it to a shop at $80 an hour. But my business also takes a bit of a hit...I have to sell to EVERY customer that comes in to make my sales. Most of my customers are now buying the cheaper products that I have instead of the better ones. Everyone seems to be doing what they have to do to keep their head obove water.

Over a year ago my sister and I got into an argument about Obama. I told her about what I saw coming once he took over. My sister, though I love her, is a leftwing liberal from Connecticut. She ripped me up one side and down the other, telling me how much better our lives would be now that he was in office. I challenged her to come to me in a year and we would compare philosophies and see who would be right and who would have to admit that they were wrong. Well, to date, my sis can't come up with a single thing in her life that is better although she does complain about having to work two jobs, 7 days a week to make ends meet. Not one to gloat but an I told ya so is headed her way soon.

Twil, if I put in 4 years of school in a specialized field and decided to make that my life's work then , yes, I would feel entitled to a decent paying job in that career field. I wouldn't want to work for minimum wage because I sepnt THOUSANDS for schooling. I would find it hard to pay back that money on minimum wage AND feed my family. But you make an assumption about some of the jobs you spoke of. Construction? I have a family member that went to college for four years in business. Why you ask...so he could keep track of and pay the employees he would have. To be able to do the math that is required. A friend has a business degree so he can run the family farm. Can anyone pick up a hammer and call himself a carpenter?..Sure...will he do well at it...probably not. Can anyone plant aq seed and be called a farmer...absolutely...will they feed the masses?...maybe but only if their lucky. ANd belive me..I've done both and there is nothing easy about these jobs. No such thing as casual friday when it's 10 degrees out and you have to get this house framed to feed your family this week.

Watch this. Bazooka was kind enough to send this to me. See how much DC feels our pain! This will really chap your butts and Pelosi's response is a GEM as well. What a buch of crap!

http://www.oregonlive.com/news/index.ssf/2010/01/linn_county_sheriff_seizes_31.h...

Enjoy.

Currently I wash dishes at a nursing home while going to school. I dont mind the job at all. It is not above or below me. This is not to say that I am better than anyone else. I have been homeless. I have led a very poor existence at times and so dont have the lofty expectations that others do. I cant count how many people that I have spoke to that feel that its society's fault that they are not living the upper-Middle class life. Their own decisions had nothing to do with their having to downsize from 3 cars to 2, having to cancel their NFL sunday ticket subscription, etc. I just tire of excuses and whining.

The govt. is not to blame for everything nor should it take all the credit. It is just one element in life. Some people are always going to have little man syndrome. Always needing to blame somone for their misfortunes. The govt. being the easiest target for their frustration. Govt. has ultimate authority. It is easy to cry the blues about because it is simply nameless individuals in some office following orders. Easy to blame and it keeps them from looking inward. People's own failings are not the whole story of course. In today's culture, i find that personal responsibility gets pushed to the bottom of the priority totem pole.

I get it that leaders and politicians are important. I think that most of the time that we exaggerate that importance. By continuing to cry and complain about their decisions in the economic realm, we make them ever more crucial to our lives. This increased relevance simply aids and abets their need to be heroes. All humans need to feel adequate, relevant, and necessary. By continuing to grovel for a better lifestyle, they become increasingly relevant. In other words, it feeds their egos. The bigger the ego, the more it takes to satisfy it. If society did not hang on their every move, there would be no need to try to be a celebrity like Ms. Pelosi. Just some idle thoughts. What do you think?

"The "braindead" out there who will support ANYTHING that is trendy, styish or different."

There are quite a few who embody that statement. Well said. The idea of govt. borrowing to prop up the lives of average Americans got its start with FDR which is long before Bush. The difference being that FDR and his staff had a plan to pay it back before they ever did the borrowing. This plan may not have worked perfectly but at least they did not take this for granted. Today's politicians have no clue how to pay it back nor do they care. Or at least that is the impression that i get.

There are quite a few out there (mostly the younger generation) who simply jumped on the Obama bandwagon without thinking through all of it. Politicians are universally full of hot air. They are simply legal used car salesmen. For every speech, there is always a degree of exaggeration. They always simplify things too much. Economies are complex. Military decisions cant be made in two seconds. Ok, time to go to class. The 55-minute joke without a punchline.

It was typical political speak. I guess I can say that he is charismatic but really when one strips away the PC talk, he is just a slick salesman. I wont condemn him but his platform seems to be built not on original ideas but doing what the masses want. I know that sounds strange but he seems to react to his constituency and then follow from there. He appears passionate but I get the impression that he is simply following what the polls say will be the most popular move. I wont go on but I detect some flaws in that style.

the polls overwhelmingly stated that health care and iraq/iran were the two issues that people wanted addressed come election time. I did some checking on him and prior to declaring his intention to run for the presidency he cared very little about these issues. That seems to tell me that he only cares because we care. That sounds legit. That tends to result in someone who simply goes through the motions or someone that does not understand the issue altogether. I lean towards the latter. I wont blabber on but there is more to the equation than his party would like to admit.

Some of it is that they are have different agendas and different expectations. If being in Congress was not a source of prestige or financial stability, things would get done and for the right reasons. Kim's other post supports this idea.