"You Lie!" Oh My!

And why did Rep. Joe Wilson scream out loud? AH Gee was it

right after the President said there would be no health care for illegal immigrants ???

Most of the bail out money given to banks have been returned and they are starting to see a profit.

Wall Street is doing better !

Were getting closer to health reform. Just need to work on some parts making it better oh and what does HA HA ! the The Surgeon wants to do>>>> Throw out and start all over !

Very well written bazookaman. I find that after reviewing your comments they mirror my thoughts and so I just wanted to say thanks for saying what so many of us think.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2009/sep/09/joe-wilson/joe-wi...

Just a couple of questions Kim. I tried to find the article by Glenn Thrush, but had no luck. Could you give us the link?

I'm surprised that the Representative would've responded to the President's address in that context. Traditionally, when the President addresses a joint session of Congress, it is accepted practice that the President does the talking, while all others respectfully listen. There are many avenues for rebuttal for those who may disagree with the Presidents message.

Where do you see the "truth" being shut down?

So, let's begin a real discussion of what you've read in the bill.

Participate, people!

http://finance.senate.gov/sitepages/hearings.htm

http://finance.senate.gov/sitepages/leg/LEG%202009/051109%20Health%20Care%20Desc...

http://finance.senate.gov/press/Bpress/2009press/prb090909.pdf

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c111:h3200:

Those links should give us all some common reading to base our discussions on. Talk to you all later!

Hey Dave, Try this....

http://www.politico.com/blogs/glennthrush/

I particularly like the article where they talk about the potential punshiment of Wilson for his outburst. Once again the left is searching for a way to trample the First Amendment right of Freedom of Speech...on the floor of CONGRESS no less.

I agree with Kim that it may have been out of line but let it be said NO MAN has the right to stomp all over the constitution because he doesn't like what was said!!! Wilson had EVERY right to express his opinion, he just needed a better forum. If things go as I feel they might, then every democrat needs to be voted out. The violate the very letter of the constitution be proposing punishment for voicing free speech.

http://www.politico.com/blogs/glennthrush/0909/Dem_leaders_renew_push_for_Wilson...

There's another link for ya Dave, since you like to throw them out all the time.

Ohh as a side note, I sent Senator Mike Crapo a friendly email voicing my opinion on several things such as healthcare and ACORN using tax money to support illegal operations. I went to Walt Minnick's website but it curiously wouldn't let me even get into send an email....funny? Maybe he's hiding like the other democrats in congress. We'll see.

And as I sit here I see that ACORN fired the two employees that were on the video...NICE CYA ACORN!

You're right Mike..time to throw the bumbs OUT.

Hey Dave, regarding the 3rd link down. This statement concerns me.

"Ombudsman. In 2010, states would be required to establish an ombudsman office to act as a consumer advocate for those with private coverage in the individual and small group markets. Policyholders whose health insurers have rejected claims and who have exhausted internal appeals would be able to access the ombudsman office for assistance."

Who pays for this office at the state level? Is this funded as part of the nearly 1 trillion dollar cost of the reform act or is it another unfunded mandate by the federal goverment forced upon the states? Just curious.

And as for the nest paragraph about transparency...I find that any comment from THIS administration about transprancey is like Bernie Madoff telling people not to steal.

Just a little note for tonight >> Republicans have been loosing their seats in the Senate and in the House since 2006

MsMarylin: Thanks for your participation in these blogs. I enjoy seeing more people. As to your comment, Spot on! Yes, Republicans have been ousted and for good reason. They dropped the ball and stopped listening to the people too. Though I have voted Republican in the past, I have also voted for others who were independent or conservative. I have always tried real hard to vote for the person and what they "say" they stand for. I am really saddened that our country has focused on two parties and made it impossible for great people to excel if they are not listed as a dem or rep. We are forced to vote for a President who is either dem or rep because when they have these debates, they won't include independents. All the focus is on them and very little information is given about others, therefore they can't get the money or gather support. I'm sure that there will be many who will come up with examples that prove me wrong. However, candidates who get the money for campaigns are R or D. And money talks louder than common sense more qualified candidates. Sad, but true. (Time 6:28am)

I, probably because of my own outspoken ways, see NOTHING wrong with what Wilson said/did. It was not truthful what Obama was presenting. If you do the research, yourself---and READ, it was more of Obama's smoke and mirrors. If you do not do the research and look at the facts the "plan" sounds great. However, when you really look at what is proposed and the costs...not so good, IMHO. People really need to learn to NOT take things at face value when it involves our Government and the people who claim (I REPEAT CLAIM) to represent our "best interests"). Wilson had a RIGHT, as an American citizen, to state what he did. Was it the "right" forum? Maybe yes---maybe no.

People seem to think that he should have kept his mouth shut? Why? He had the guts to say what probably 90% of the people in that room REALLY thought but had no guts to say. Be glad there are still people in Government who are willing to speak out. It is a VERY rare trait.

If you want to express outrage at least send it in the right direction. Our President is not truthful and it is proven in the healthcare reform documents. Why should Wilson have kept his mouth shut? Why should he ALLOW the lies to continue under the false belief of truth? WHY? Some of you express outrage. How about the outrage toward the ELECTED OFFICIALS that lie time and time again and twist the facts to fit their agenda and what THEY want. This is not waht this country is all about and THAT IS WHAT WE SHOULD REMEMBER. R & D alike lie. Both party lines are guilty...50/50. I find outrage in the fact that the American People fall for all of this garbage and get mad at the guy that does not buy into the garbage. So we enjoy being lied to? We enjoy being taxed to death? We enjoy supporting the illegals who have BETTER health coverage than we do? We support payments of SSI to people who have NEVER worked here legally and legally have NO RIGHT to such payments. That is what I find to be sad. I also find it sad that a member of Government spoke out and now he is being grilled. Are we as Americans really that stupid? Really? Look deep in your hearts and think about things. We have this same problem on a local level as well with the WECRD (and other things I am sure). People feel "outrage" toward the people who dare to ask questions. How dare us, as taxpayers, question how OUR money is spent! How dare ANYBODY question MY GIVEN RIGHT to do so? Since when did it become okay for our own Government to rip US off at every turn?

I feel outrage today but it is toward the people that allow these things to happen and then punish the people who have the nerve to speak out. Yes...how dare I?!?! On this day, September 11 remember what those terrorists did. The same people our President now wants to be friends with and set free. Yes, I feel outrage today.

First let me say I have never said if I am Democrat or Republican !

So why have the Republicans been losing seats in the house and the senate since 2006? Why are some going over to the democratic side?

The Republican's keep throwing untruths out there about Obama why are they doing that?

Joe Wilson when he heckled the president didn't have his facts straight. He called our President a liar bad bad bad ! It was already in the health reform plan that illegal's would not get any health insurance. At one time there was a loophole in the plan where illegals could get insurance but they have since and before Obama's speech to congress closed that loophole. But you already knew that didn't you?

This is not the first time Wilson has been wrong he was wrong about the Iraq war....

Wilson is an embarrassment to the Republican party

In the past when George W was was our President he also had been heckled but never called a liar on the congress floor.

However George W lied to our country. He lied about Missles in Iraq and got us into the war over there. While in office he lied more then 500 times on issues !

Oh and Bazoo we do have freedom of speech however I don't think it did Joe Wilson any good by using it when he called our president a liar ! We teach our children to be better then that! What a great role model he is for our children, just what this country needs.

Let me tell you the mentality of some of Joe Wilson's supporters >>> I just heard a little clip on the news last night and didn't catch the web site and I am still searching for it. The gist of it was there is a bunch banning together to march on DC tomorrow and they are telling everyone through this web site to bring Guns and Weapons !

MsM:

Illegals ALREADY have health coverage...and WE PAY FOR IT! They get care not using a real name and WE PAY! Or, they get care using their real name and do not pay. Or, they get care through Medicaid...AND WE PAY. So, they already have a healthcare plan---they ARE covered.

I do not vote a party line. I vote the issues and where a person stands on those issues and then I research their history/the way they voted on issues. I am from Chicago and MORE THAN AWARE of Obama's history and "all he did" for the people of Illinois.

I doubt Wilson has a thing to do with the clip you saw on the news...that probably came right from the OBAMA CAMP to really stir things up. Do not believe all that you see or hear on the news.

R & D are BOTH liars and cheats. I notice you did not respond to that. Both are guilty. What makes 1 lie worse than another? Poor Obama! He made his bed. On this day, 9/11, remember the terrorists he plans to release from Gitmo and then tell me what a "role model" he is again for all of the children. This conversation makes me want to puke!

"In the past when George W was was our President he also had been heckled but never called a liar on the congress floor.

However George W lied to our country. He lied about Missles in Iraq and got us into the war over there. While in office he lied more then 500 times on issues !"

Lets not start the he-said she-said games because Bush was far from perfect. His approval ratings were abysmal near the end. The point is that he was caught in many untruths as well. It is politics after all.

I do not think anyone on this forum has ever said Bush was truthful...I do not remember anyone even making a comment really in "support" either. My point is that they all lie but that the American People should be smart enough to know fact from fiction and not take a smooth talker's words as gospel just because he said em. That was the point. In politics, they all lie but it does not mean I have to buy what they are selling.

Thanks for the links mhbouncer. I'll check them out.

As far as the squashing of Joe Wilson's free speech, no one in the government prevented Joe Wilson from shouting out, and no one has attempted to suppress his post shout out interviews either. He's been on the web, radio and television. He wasn't "disappeared". He behaved badly. That's it.

I've seen many episodes of COPS, and I can recall many instances where a cop "cuffed and stuffed" someone who had done nothing more than be verbally abusive toward the officer. Those instances illustrate a representative of the state taking action to deprive someone of their liberty merely because someone let their mouth run.

Those officers were there to do a job, whatever may have called them to the scene. They deserved respect by all involved. Those involved would have an opportunity to address grievances through several avenues, perhaps including an ombudsman, the filing of a formal complaint, or through the course of any case that may have been brought against them. Getting in a shouting match with any officer at the scene is not the way to resolve any issue.

The President deserves respect as well, regardless of Joe Wilson's point of view. Joe has had plenty of air time since the shout out to present his reasoning for his views on the issues. Statements he has made on his website regarding an effort to "silence" him are disingenuous.

I'll check out those links and review the context of the ombudsman funding quote. It may take some time for me to get back to you, I'm working 12/6 here lately.

The

People do not "deserve" respect no matter what position they hold. Respect is earned and is normally based on a person's record/actions or both. Maybe if people respected him in the first place the "liar" event would have never been (maybe truth would have been a good start). Nobody ever likes to be called out but if you tell the truth it shall prevail.

The fact that this never went on with Bush tells you something---people may not have liked him but they must have had some degree of respect for him (on some level anyway).

Illegals ALREADY have health coverage...and WE PAY FOR IT! They get care not using a real name and WE PAY! Or, they get care using their real name and do not pay. Or, they get care through Medicaid...AND WE PAY. So, they already have a healthcare plan---they ARE covered.

So When did this first start that Illegals get health coverage? Who was our President then?

That is about to change

No matter what health program they come up with the Demorcrats and the Republicans they still won't have addressed the Root of our Health Care System.

We need prevention and education rather then management. Our Health system needs to go back to a caring Profession and not an Industry.

We need more family Drs ! We have to many specialists why because specialists make more money !

People do not "deserve" respect no matter what position they hold. Respect is earned and is normally based on a person's record/actions or both. Maybe if people respected him in the first place the "liar" event would have never been (maybe truth would have been a good start). Nobody ever likes to be called out but if you tell the truth it shall prevail.

So this is what we should teach our children?

Let me understand this when Congress is in session it's ok for everyone that don't like the Presidents or his politics to shout out "your a liar" no matter who the President is? And when in a court room if you don't like the judge you can call him/her a liar ! Why is that? Oh because we have freedom of speech !

How is it about to change MsM? What is Obama doing to close borders and cut illegals off? What is the status of his aunt that was here and NOT legal? Where is she? Did she get a magic card and get to stay? So once again, how are things going to change if our own President does not follow the "rules" that are in place? Just wondering.

OM I think your trying to pick a fight with me! Go back and read what I said.... I was talking about illegals getting health cards. It's already in the policy that they are working on that NO illegals will be covered. They have to show citizenship of our country.

And as to your other ramblings I don't think you have been paying attention to the news !

Respect is still earned...not a given. Just because you demand it does not mean you will get it. Guess we will agree to disagree on this one. This is not a simple matter of a person just calling someone a liar for no reason so please do not take my comments out of context. Obama was NOT being honest, period. Why should he not be called out on it? Was it the best forum? Maybe/maybe not. Would you suggest that the matter was covered in a memo that woudl have never been read? Or maybe an email?

Why have we fallen into this trap where we find it okay for our elected representatives to lie...and it is okay or the "standard" if you will? Why? If it was your child caught in a lie you would confront them (him/her). Why is this any different? OH---because this is the President! So, it is okay for the President to lie on national TV? Yes, great role model for the children. I can see now why his words are so highly regarded.

When I was a child I was taught respect. I was also taught what truth vs. a lie was. There was a price to be paid for telling a lie (accountability). Where is that accountability now? Oh yes! At the polls...you just have to hope the "majority" has done their research and know the facts. If not...well, we live the "if not" now. Sorry, nice suits, an ability to speak "well" and a good education do not make the man, his actions do. If you give respect, you get respect. It is that old "you reap what you sow."

So, why are lies by EITHER side okay? Why is a lack of truth now the standard? Why do WE NOT demand better from the people who "represent" us? Why? It has not a thing to do with D or R so we need to give that one up. They are all liars and cheats. This knows no party line. Wilson speaks up and he has "behaved badly." Why? Because the hundreds of other people in that room and the VP refused to say anything? PLEASE!!! Why is this the "standard" of our elected officials?

And as far as someone going from a D to a R or a R to a D...it is all about politics and being reelected. It has NOTHING to do with how "they" feel about one side or the other. Let us be truthful and factual on this matter. If he lives another 10 years...he will cross over yet AGAIN because it is all about politics and reelection. No more, no less. Denial. What a great crutch for some. We need higher standards as the "limbo stick" is on the ground. You can only go up (or so we shall hope) when an entire nation sets their standards so low. Very sad.

Go Wilson go!

No MsM, I was not attempting to pick a fight with you. Is that the best you could do? By all means do not "debate" based on facts. As for the news...I watch it...then research it. I take NOTHING at face value nor do I believe 100% of what is on the news. I am on page 106 of the healthcare bill for the 2nd time around. Have you read it yet?

As for my other "ramblings" thank you for a factual response. Enjoy your day.

Thousands of illegals a day show "proof" that they are "citizens" and obtain loans, healthcare, SSI, etc. They do this with documents that are not real or that have been stolen. So, tell me again how this is going to work so that only "legal" people get this if the current system does not prevent these same frauds? Does the healthcare system need reform? YES! However, nothing will change until our law makers get out of bed with the insurance industry and that is probably not going to happen. Insurance gives BILLIONS and BILLIONS of dollars each year just like oil. Please do not think for one minute that there will be accountability in the insurance industry---they give too much to elected officials to be held to ANY sort of a standard. This is what got us to where we are today.

Wow pretty heated posts!

OM I confess I don't have all the answer's! So if the illegals have been using our health care system for some time now, why didn't the previous Presidents do something about it?

I am a simple woman who spend her years taking care of children........ Volunteering at our schools, raising my kids, and other peoples kids!

I have read some of the Health bill. It's quite a task for me to get through, it will probably take me a week to go through it. Lol !

Politicians are Just that Politicians ! They will tell you whatever they think you want to hear true or false but I still believe its wrong to disrespect a president while making a speech. No matter how you feel about him, we the people of this nation voted him in...

I didn't care for Clinton nor did I care for George W......... but if I was given the privilege to sit in the same room with them I would not disrespect them

And I agree with you in this country its all about money ! It would be nice if our health care system would be a caring one.

I bet we are the only country who sells Medication on Television. I think that should be stopped.....

I will say it again...OM and I do not always agree, but just because she is debating an issue with you and clearly making a point you must play the victim MsM....We are all adults here and should be able to come here and say how we feel without crying about what one says or how it makes one feel....I myself have been on Team Obama but havent been impressed with him much at all. I cant take it back now, only can move forward...But I do understand Wilson's feeling and outburst because I myself have a tendency to have almost every thought that crosseses my mind come straight out of my mouth....and did you see the look on Obamas face when Wilson did that? Oh my my my, his eyes said it ALL....bet he wanted to take him outside and whoop him :)

I teach my kids to respect the President. All adults for that matter, but we all cant always agree. Dont take it personal. If you cant deal then dont debate.....

What ! So why do you think I am playing the victim?

OM needs a hug

Beyond that, Illegals don't go to the doctors office...they go to the emergency rooms. Hospitals that are taking taxpayers dollars CANNOT refuse to treat ANYONE based on the ability to pay. So we treat these people and then the bills get sent to the address provided. Umm now there's a problem..the address doesn't exist..or the names are false. THAT is how illegals get free healthcare in this country. I lived in south central Idaho for most of my life. During that time I worked several years in law enforcement. In one summer we siezed over 30 fake id cards and social security cards. Amazingly most all of these cards had the same address on them. Any guesses if this address truly existed?

I think Mr. Wilson took the only venue afforded him to voice his opinion of the president and his health care plan. Unless he goes to Fox News, none of the major networks are allowing a alternate opinion to that of the president. It seems to me after every speech given by Bush, a democrat was given EQUAL time to rebut Bush's speech. Did Bush whine and cry and sick his dogs on these people?

I agree with OM, respect is EARNED. So Bush lied 500 times in 8 years as our president. How many times has Obama lied in 8 MONTHS as president. How many lies has he told to gain the presidency? You can't bash one without looking at BOTH people. But as we've seen fairness is in the eye of the people controlling congress. When it was the Republicans, the dems did nothing but trash Bush for the way he spoke and his policies. When the dems gained control of congress the rhetoric got worse. People who claimed to be for something to help them along in their campaigns now flip-flopped and started gouging the Bush administration for the very thing they supported only months ago. Is that truthful? Now it's un-American to voice oppostiion to the goverment, the president and his policies. Now you can be censored in congress, have your web page shut down..all for expressing your first amendment right. WHat would happen MsM if the goverment decided they didn't like what you wrote here and pulled your priviledges to the internet? WHAT? Having the internet isn't a priviledge? You have the RIGHT to have access to the web to voice your opinion here? Hmm...better tell that to the new communications czar!

Side Note: Best part of WIlson yelling out was the look on Pelosi's face..I still chuckle when I see that video.

As we have our spirited debate please take a moment to remember the 2984 heroes that fell on this day 8 years ago. They were the first casualties in the War on Terror. No matter what the current President wishes to call it, we are at war with a people that publicly state they want nothing less than the total destruction of our country. It transcends political parties, race and gender.

It all started 8 years ago today.

MHbouncer...I will agree, it was/is priceless. It was as if someone let one rip in the Oval Office! Biden's look was pretty good as well. I am sure they were shocked because G-d knows they sure as heck never read the healthcare reform package.

Pelosi just hopes nobody goes after the issue of her jet in a public forum. It is all dog eat dog (so to speak).

MsM,

-- Posted by MsMarylin on Fri, Sep 11, 2009, at 11:23 AM-

OM I think your trying to pick a fight with me!

Thats why......

And just think...soon they will be free to run the streets because Obama feels they should be set free. So, we can not only pay to treat them when they are sick (the folks from Gitmo) but we can also pay for them to further their education at OUR expense. YES, CHANGE I BELIEVE IN!

MsM, I really did not mean to offend you. I wanted to point out that, IMO, you did not have all of the facts and had left a few things out. I do not think you are stupid or "simple." It would take anybody some time to read that entire document. Shoot, I am on my second reading. I wish our elected officials would read it before they rally for this. Is that too much to ask?

mhg4316

OM I think your trying to pick a fight with me!

That was a wrong choice of words on my part. I met it like a debate argument and if I came across like a victim I certainly didn't mean it to come out that way !

I might differ with most of you that post on here, and if I ask questions it is to find out what you know or think you know as compared to what I know or think I know.

So if you all think it was wonderful and great that Wilson called our President a liar on the floor of congress while making a speech, I want to know what good comes from that?

If he lied show me the lie !

Om by me saying I am simple I wasn't stating that I was stupid what I was saying by simple was that I am an ordinary person ...lol !

What's bad about posting on the internet is you can't really get the emotions to know if the person is mad sad or happy or angry

And yes I agree some of our freedom has been taken away not just by Obama I have seen it slowly disappearing as years go by and I am sure there will be more to come.

And yes I agree some of our freedom has been taken away not just by Obama I have seen it slowly disappearing as years go by and I am sure there will be more to come.

-- Posted by MsMarylin on Fri, Sep 11, 2009, at 2:46 PM

Amen to that MsM. Have a great weekend.

OM I will see you tomorrow

MsM, I will look forward to it. I hope to get your support for my cause:) Enjoy your day.

I don't know if I would characterize what Wilson did as great and wonderful. BUT I do defend Rep. Wilson's right to exercise his right to free speech just as I would defend your right to voice your opinion freely in this blog..even if I don't agree.

The healthcare reform act DOES leave the loophole open for people who haven't earned the right to receive free healthcare....they are doing it as we speak. There is NO provision for ANY hospital to refuse medical care to illegal immigrants. That would be the only way to stop it...maybe. But being the free and peace loving country we are, we accept what people tell us at face value. Rarely does anyone dig much further than the surface to find any truth. This was proven last week when only ONE new organization went after Van Jones for what he truly was. The first that any of the main stream news outlets had on the news was when he resigned. 52% of the populace swallows the kool-aid that Obama is dispensing with out once asking what's in it. They believe the words Obama speaks to be the truth without question. This is why a stimulus package was rammed through congress in the wee hours of the morning without anyone having a chance to read it. The Democrats didn't care what was in it and the Republicans were called in from bed to vote on it without being given the time Obama PROMISED they would have.

So where is the truth MsM? You ask where was the lie but I ask you where is the truth. Tell me how ANYONE can vote to spend BILLIONS of dollars without knowing what they are voting on.

What if I put two candidates in front of you, no information about who they are, what they stand for or what their past is. I asked you to vote for one of them to be the president of this country what would you do? Would you vote because you liked their smile? Their race? Their clothes? Hell no, you would tell me you couldn't vote unless you knew more about them. You would want to know where they stand on issues important to you. You would want to kow where they came from (politically) so you would know whether they represent your interests.

So why can't the liberals in congress get the same idea. Why are they bullying people into voting for things without being given a chance to read, even a part of, what it is they are voting on. Why do liberals start the name calling and hate speech when people who REALLY want to know what it is they are going to be paying for ask congress to stop and READ what is in front of them. Why am I branded a right wing extremist if I believe in the tenants of what this country was founded on? Why am I a nazi if I stand up against these people that want me to listen to what they say if they don't respect me enough to listen to what I say? Why is it suddenly against the law to stand up and voice your distrust and disgust of the government when liberals have been doing the same thing for DECADES. Why is it too much to ask that the people I voted for to represent ME to actually go to Washington as MY representative?

I want to know MsM. Has Obama lied? The answer is clear. If you argue otherwise then you haven't opened your eyes yet to what has happened over the past 8 months.

The Truth is when Wilson shouted out..... he didn't have his facts straight. He thought he was right, he thought the president lied however he was wrong.

He was wrong first because he thought they were talking about the waxman (sp) bill when in reality Obama was speaking about another bill he was hoping to see out of the Senate. As far as I know there are 3 health care bill's out there

2nd He was wrong for displaying that kind of behavior it was inappropriate, disrespectful and distasteful. He looked like a little boy throwing a temper tantrum And furthermore his fellow Republicans knew he messed up when they learned as of 5 PM today his opponent has raised $811,788 in donations !

Those that applaud him for his out burst are taking something very Negative and trying to turn it into something Positive.

I'm with MsMarylin, show me the lie. Don't cloud it with any b.s. rhetoric. Someone, please show me where the President departed from the plan laid out in H.R. 3200 on the night he addressed Congress. Please!

Please see H.R. 3200, Subtitle C, Sec. 246, which states "No federal payment for undocumented aliens". This section, in it's entirety states, quote, "3 SEC. 246. NO FEDERAL PAYMENT FOR UNDOCUMENTED

4 ALIENS.

5 Nothing in this subtitle shall allow Federal payments

6 for affordability credits on behalf of individuals who are

7 not lawfully present in the United States"

Hey Bazoo I think you have gone off topic. Kim's blog was about the Presidents speech and health care reform

You are off subject, and I hope you're not counting on FOX alone to keep you balanced on top of the turmoil! The basics of this story are months old.

Read it for yourself.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2009/jun/26/michele-bachmann/...

OR

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2009/jun/26/bachmann-earns-two-m...

OR

http://www.factcheck.org/2009/06/acorn-and-the-census/

Do you have anything regarding H.R. 3200?

Dave you really need to check your facts when you start using liberal websites to promote your "thoughts".

Reading through Factcheck.org, a very liberal leaning site, they contradict themselves several times throughout the article. the Fox News blurb read, "ACORN to play role in 2010 census,"

But the article gives a direct quote from a census official that reads,

"ACORN's form is on page 48 of a package of documents that was turned over to the watchdog group Judicial Watch by the Census Bureau under the Freedom of Information Act. ACORN checked off, among other items, "identify job candidates and/or distribute and display recruiting materials" and "provide space to train new [census] employees."

So wouldn't this be considered playing a role? So ACORN is gonna go out and "find" people and encourage them to apply for these census jobs then give them office space to train? Isn't this considered playing a role? True Bachmann's statements may have been in error but the fact remains that ACORN WILL be involved at least in part with the census bureau. They can definately control the applicants it sends to the Census bureau.

As for being paid to work for the census, well we all know you aren't supposed to double dip from the taxpayer coffers. They are already receiving federal funds to operate. So basically your fact checkers have proven the point of the conservatives...Thanks Dave.

As for your quoting of HR 3200, It says that the FEDERAL goverment will not pay for healthcare for illegal aliens. It's true..they won't. It will be left to the states to pick up that tab. You found the very loophole I spoke of earlier...again..Thanks Dave!

Didn't forget you MsM,

If Wilson thought the President was speaking of a different bill, wouldn't that make him mistaken? Being wrong means you have no factual basis for your statement. In fact IF Wilson was MISTAKEN then his comment would have factual basis as the Waxman bill does provide for healthcare for illegal aliens...correct? So in fact Wilson was mistaken about the bill the President was supporting but the "Lie" comment would have been correct in the context Wilson thought he used it in.

As for the forum Wilson used for his comment....can't defend it. It was disruptive....but again, the look on Pilosi's face was well worth it.

Question: Are we even sure which bill Obama was talking about? do you think he was sure? HR3200 or what??????

Another question: Wouldn't it make it easier to make the people focus on one bill like HR3200 while actually the bill that they are trying to pass is different? HR3200 was originally listed as being introduced to House of Representatives in July of 2007.

Even more interesting question is this: Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act (EMTALA) was passed in 1986 to mandate that all hospitals, who accept payments from the Dept. of Health (Medicaid and Medicare ), provide emergency care to anyone regardless of legal status, insurance coverage or ability to pay. Since then, more than half of all emergency care goes without compensation. Therefore, it is understandable that everyone who has insurance have shouldered the cost. Most of the consequences of this law such as cost-shifting, rising medical costs and higher insurance rates are the very arguments that are being given to make the public demand this nationalized healthcare. So here is my question. If this healthcare HR 3200 states that you must be a legal citizen and Obama states that this healthcare bill will not cover illegal immigrants then it cancels out EMTALA? I doubt that very much. I think that this HR3200 can make that statement with the full knowledge that EMTALA is still in affect so that covers everyone! It's perfect! Use the words in order to appease and get more people to support it. But hopefully, most people won't remember EMTALA is still a law until another bill is passed that states EMTALA is no longer valid.

Bouncer, while ACORN may help the Census Bureau recruit applicants, those applicants must still comply with the Census Bureaus background checks, etc., prior to any employment.

As far as whether or not a website is "liberal" leaning or not, it is still a resource we conservatives can use to help us find other sources with which to understand the issues in deeper context.

Don't understand your statement about "double-dipping" from the "taxpayer coffers".

Concerning the "loophole" you may be referring to in H.R. 3200, I consider your point not valid. Your "loophole" is actually the EMTALA that Kim mentions. I think Joe Wilson was a bit confused between those apples and oranges as well.

No need to stoop to a condescending tone with me. No "Thanks" are necessary. I consider myself a level headed, even tempered conservative, accepting the realities that life has handed us. Nor do I parrot or craft my comments based on what I've heard from frantic, shrill conservative talk show hosts. We must work within the system. The sky is not falling.

Ok I am on my first cup of coffee so bare with me. lol !

I have a question If most of the banks have returned their bail out money and are starting to see a profit does that mean our Government still owns the banks?

There is 3 bills their working on and they are hoping to get one past by Thanksgiving.

So my question is if the new health care reform plan is going to cost trillions of dollars should we abandon ship and not have a better health care plan in place?

I don't care how much you applaud Wilson for his stupidity he was wrong when he called obama a liar and he is still wrong.

Here's a website for the Happy Gun toting people on here I am sure you will enjoy it. They talk about a civil war coming "NARLO" look it up

Thanks Kim for finding the EMTALA stuff. The hospitals still ahve another route to go to get SOME of the bills paid from people with no money, they go to you local couny commisioners and ask for funds from the indigent fund. THis fund is set up to help off set the cost of supporting people with no mney to pay their bills.

Dave, ACORN would be doulbe dipping if they accepted 8.5 BILLION dolloars to help with operating expenses then charged the government for the work they were going to do on the census. That point is moot now that they have been fired by the census bureau. Still would like an investigation into ACORN as a whole. The wya they have been shown to operate I'm almost positive that they fall under the RICO statute for organized crime. The couple that has exposed TWO ACORN offices said last night it's not the last of the videos they have. How interesting after ACORN put out a statement after the first tape was released saying it was only ONE time at the Baltimore office. Now we have at least two offices involved. This is a criminal enterprise that stretches across state lines. THese following are excerpts directly from the RICO statute

TITLE 18 > PART I > CHAPTER 96 > § 1961.

sections 1581--1592 (relating to peonage, slavery, and trafficking in persons).,[1

sections 2251, 2251A, 2252, and 2260 (relating to sexual exploitation of children),

(F) any act which is indictable under the Immigration and Nationality Act, section 274 (relating to bringing in and harboring certain aliens), section 277 (relating to aiding or assisting certain aliens to enter the United States), or section 278 (relating to importation of alien for immoral purpose) if the act indictable under such section of such Act was committed for the purpose of financial gain, or (G) any act that is indictable under any provision listed in section 2332b (g)(5)(B); (

Under these statutes ACORN can be investigate as a corrupt organization as a whole. Don't beleive me look it up for yourself.

I've been reading about the ACORN videos recently released.

The name James O'Keefe didn't ring a bell, so I looked him up on biggovernment.com.

James' bio states that he "...directed, scripted, produced and acted in a series of undercover videos...", further, "His most recent project is Veritasvisuals.com, a collection of satirical short films on newsworthy topics, featuring ridiculous situations and demands."

I'm not familiar with James' work, and I must review more to learn where his lampooning ends and his serious work begins.

Shall we continue discussing H.R. 3200? I found nothing in it that addressed EMTALA, but I've had to review EMTALA as well to become familiar with the elements of that legislation, so that I could recognize those elements within H.R. 3200!

So then, nothing on H.R. 3200?

I was "thinking outside the box" the other day, and I began building on an idea that is based on a question I have. As far as degrees of misfortune and suffering go, is it worse to suffer as a victim of "man's inhumanity to man" as victims of past/impending terrorist attacks have/will, or to be a victim of the many uncontrollable human health factors that may also result in our suffering or death?

I have a question strictly a question, don't want to debate just want answers

While Bush was in office I believe they were trying to pass a bill allowing our country to import drugs (medications) giving us more choices on medication.

The health industry got all upset and didn't want it because that would be taking money out of their pockets if we were allowed to buy our medications in Canada or Mexico. So some one put a trigger on the bill and it never got passed. It just sat there. My question is how does a trigger work and who puts that trigger in place?

I have heard that the same thing could possibly happen on HR 3200 stopping us from having a public option. Who would put the trigger on this one and why do we allow it to happen?

MsMarylin, check out this link. It is pertinent to the subject at hand and contains some background on other legislation that has been "triggered", if you will.

http://www.slate.com/id/2227795?nav=wp

As far as degrees of misfortune and suffering go, is it worse to suffer as a victim of "man's inhumanity to man" as victims of past/impending terrorist attacks have/will, or to be a victim of the many uncontrollable human health factors that may also result in our suffering or death?

Anybody?

But it's a question you've avoided as Gibbs would.

Thanks X 3.

But, let me clarify. I'm not asking whether a terrorist attack is bad. All terrorist attacks are bad.

I am asking which is worse, the physical suffering endured by a victim of a terrorist attack OR the suffering endured by someone who may suffer from any of those diseases that make up the list of leading causes of death in the U.S.?

This game of "would you rather" is ridculous and I can't for the life of me even understand why the question was asked. Was it to see which is considered more important of an issue? Is it a scale whereby you place a number on the pain and suffering? Let's see, I think the terrorist one is a 10 and the victim of the many uncontrollable human health factors would rate, let me think, a 10! Jeeze, I can't see where that question was going. I know that I'm a blonde and therefore, understandably dense so help me out here. Another thing that came to mind over that question is this, The first, a victim of terrorists, is an event that could have been prevented and therefore righteous anger would apply. The second victim was described as having an "uncontrollable disease" so therefore though righteous anger would still apply, it can't be due to the fault of somebody or some government or security system. One we can do something to prevent and the other we can't. So should we focus on the can and not the can't? Not sure about that either. So in keeping with the game, Would you rather live in a free country with limited government or in a socialist country where the government dictates every aspect of your life and decides when you are no longer considered a viable comrade? Now there's a question that make me say, Hmmmmmmm. (Time 9:04 for the record-off today)

I just seen on the news that perhaps Joe Wilson was caught in a lie. Seems he said he was at one time an Immigration Lawyer however no one can find anything to back up that statement.....

bazookaman and Kim, Thank You for taking the time to answer my question.

Now, it appears safe to say that we agree all terrorist attacks are bad, and the victims of terrorist attacks suffer.

It also appears safe to say that we agree that people suffer from many uncontrollable health factors, to include those diseases that make up the list of leading causes of death in the U.S.

The odds of becoming a victim of a terrorist attack or hijacking here in the United States are astronomical. To quote an article from aei-brookings.org, "What are the odds of dying on our next flight or next trip to a shopping mall? There are more than 40,000 malls in this country, and each is open about 75 hours per week. If a person shopped for two hours each week and terrorists were able to destroy one mall per week, the odds of being at the wrong place at the wrong time would be approximately 1.5 million to 1. If terrorists destroyed one mall each month, the odds would climb to one in 6 million. This assumes the total destruction of the entire mall; if that unlikely event didn't occur, the odds would become even more favorable." See http://www.aei-brookings.org/policy/page.php?id=19

The same interesting article continues, "People tend to underestimate the probability of a common event's occurring but overestimate the probability of a rare event. These findings may be due in part to the frequency with which we are exposed to news stories about the remote versus the common event. Anthrax, which has so far claimed five lives out of a population of 275 million, is a continuous story, while smoking-related illnesses, which claim about 400,000 lives per year, are not a news story at all." See http://www.aei-brookings.org/policy/page.php?id=19

More American servicemen and women have given their lives in the Gulf than all those that died on 9/11. Over 100,000 of the citizens we intend to liberate have died.

It infuriated me that while our nations forces were over in another country, fighting to further our nations foreign policy agenda, citizens were irrationally frightened about what our President was going to say to our children.

I wasn't concerned at all about President Obama's address. I knew that our children, boys and girls alike, were safe in their schools. I only hope a parent in Iraq did not lose a child that day due to the violence that has engulfed that nation since 2003 to the present.

I'm certain we agree on the importance of a strong national security system.

But when weighing the odds as presented above, why have we let our fear rationalize our decision to send so many men and women to their deaths to protect us from an event that is so unlikely?

Wouldn't a better use of a portion of our national resources go toward taking care of all of us and providing a true improvement in our quality of life with healthier people, more productive careers, longer life spans, and more time with our families?

I'm willing to put off the purchase of a 52" plasma monitor.

We are all alike.

I failed to mention the troops serving in Afghanistan.

Please accept my apologies. Our troops deployed to that country are serving under difficult conditions, against an irrational enemy, and they have my admiration and respect.

Bazooka, I'll have to find the video sent ot me by a fellow marine. Shows basically the same scene with a nice looking lady on the phone when someone kicks in her door. She screams and runs for the bedroom. Did she call the cosp? Did her security company call her to see if she was ok? Hell no..she grabbed a M4 and went to work on the perp. Just as life should be.

By the wya...headed down to our favorite toy store and looking a t a new pistol..new Walther PPS...less than an inch wide for concealed carry and 7 rounds of .40 cal.

Mr. Dave Thompson, you have made some really good points. I personally have seen that in my own life. I have not been afraid of a terrorist attack but I am very careful and concerned about the dangers of every day life. People do tend to focus on the least likely. Take this swine flu. Same thing. More people die every year from the flu than all deaths attributed to this swine flu yet, suddenly everyone is in crisis mode. As in all things of life, there needs to be balance. We expect the leaders, police and military to take appropriate measures to insure the safety of our citizens without overfocusing on one while neglecting another. At the same time, we citizens have to take personal responsibility for ourselves, our families and neighbors against common everyday dangers as well as keeping vigilant against those dangers that are unlikely but potential. Again, the problem is that everyone wants to place the responsibility on the government for everything so that we don't have to blame ourselves when things go wrong. It's human nature to point the finger and ignore the three fingers pointing back at us. Insurance is not a right. Caring for those in need is charity and compassionate therefore morally right but should not be a law. Charity is morally right but should not be a law. Whether or not a person chooses to have insurance is a freedom and should not become law. How much money a person makes for a job is freedom. Deciding how much a business pays an employee should not be a law. I don't agree that a basketball player who just entertains should make more money than a person who's job is life-altering to mankind. Why would a person deciding on a career, turn away from being a doctor because an auto worker screwing on a bolt makes more per hour? Does that make sense? Or a teacher who educates those kids who later get a job at a union company getting paid more to assemble something. Does that mean that I would want a government that decides that we should all be paid equally? That we should all have the same house and the same amount of money? That is Communist and socialist. A proven track record of failure. These unfair points are all things that cause righteous anger yet it is freedom that is at stake when we take that anger and decide to mandate laws to supposedly right unfairness. Freedom is lost and in the long run, that is what will ultimately ruin people's lives. (In Oregon, not at work)