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Thursday, July 31, 2014

9-9-9 Simple or simply awful?

Posted Wednesday, October 19, 2011, at 6:37 AM

I'm not doing this to slam Mr. Cain, but instead to point out how a bill of goods has been sold to the public. Figure out your income bracket and then look at your tax increase. The only thing never mentioned, at least that I can find, is whether or not pensions and Social Security will be taxed.  

 

WASHINGTON (AP) -- Herman Cain's 9-9-9 tax plan would raise taxes on 84 percent of U.S. households, according to an independent analysis released Tuesday, contradicting claims by the Republican presidential candidate that most Americans would see a tax cut.

The Tax Policy Center, a Washington think tank, says low- and middle-income families would be hit hardest, with households making between $10,000 and $20,000 seeing their taxes increase by nearly 950 percent.

"You're talking a $2,700 tax increase for people with incomes between $10,000 and $20,000," said Roberton Williams, a senior fellow at the Tax Policy Center. "That's huge."

Households with the highest incomes, however, would get big tax cuts. Those making more than $1 million a year would see their taxes cut nearly in half, on average, according to the analysis.

Among those in the middle, households making between $40,000 and $50,000 would see their taxes increase by an average of $4,400, the report said. Those making between $50,000 and $75,000 would see their annual tax bill go up by an average of $4,326.

"It's very, very regressive compared to the current system, and that's largely because we're exempting capital gains, and we're taxing your spending with the sales tax," Williams said. "People at the top end don't spend all their money and they get a lot of capital gains, so they are doing pretty well here."

Cain disputed the analysis Tuesday evening during GOP presidential debate in Las Vegas, where the other Republican candidates heaped on criticism. Cain has acknowledged that taxes would increase for some but says taxes would decrease for most.

"It does not raise taxes on those that are making the least," Cain said. "All of those are simply not true."

"The reason that our plan is being attacked so much is because lobbyists, accountants, politicians, they don't want to throw out the current tax code and put in something that's simple and fair," Cain said. "They want to continue to be able to manipulate the American people with a 10 million-word mess."

Cain's plan would scrap current taxes on income, payroll, capital gains and corporate profits. He would replace them with a 9 percent tax on income, a 9 percent business tax and a 9 percent national sales tax.

Cain's campaign has gained momentum largely in response to his tax plan, which is popular in part because of its simplicity. Several polls have the former CEO of Godfather's Pizza at or near the top of the Republican field, vying with former Massachusetts Gov. Mitt Romney.

President Barack Obama told ABC News that Cain's tax plan would impose a "huge burden" on middle-class and working families. The president said Cain's plan would make sure the wealthiest pay less -- and replace the revenue with a sales tax hitting the less well-off.

Romney criticized the plan in a conference call with reporters Tuesday.

"I believe that you're going to find with the 9-9-9 plan Herman Cain has put out that the burden shifts more to the middle class, and I think that's the wrong direction to go," Romney said. "A decision to completely jettison our current tax system for a new system always has some merit, but then you need to get into it, to figure out who's this going to help and who's this going to hurt."

Cain's rise in the polls has brought increased scrutiny, and his tax plan has taken hits from across the political spectrum. Some don't like shifting the tax burden from the wealthy to the poor and middle class; others don't like the new national sales tax.

"Anytime you give the Congress a brand-new tax, it doesn't go away," said Rep. Michele Bachmann, R-Minn. "If we give Congress a 9 percent sales tax, how long will it take a liberal president and a liberal Congress to run that up to maybe 90 percent?"

William McBride, an economist at the conservative Tax Foundation, said Cain's plan to move away from taxing savings and investment "would be a very good thing for growth in the long run."

But, McBride said, the national sales tax would be a nightmare to administer because so many state and local governments already have sales taxes, and the bases are different.

In most states, food and medicine are excluded from sales tax. Cain has said his sales tax would be applied to all new goods -- only used goods would be exempt.

"It's not as simple as having all these jurisdictions simply tack on 9 percent and send it to the federal government," McBride said in an interview.

Cain has said his plan would initially raise as much money as the current tax system but do it more efficiently, leading to economic growth, which would produce higher tax revenues. The Tax Policy Center analysis agreed that the plan would initially raise about the same amount of money as current tax policy, about $2.55 trillion in 2013.

The Tax Policy Center compared taxes on U.S. households under current tax policy, with those imposed under the Cain plan. In using current tax policy, the analysis assumes that tax cuts enacted under former President George W. Bush -- and extended through 2012 by Obama -- would be extended.

The center did a separate analysis that assumed all the Bush-era tax cuts would expire at the end of 2012. Under that scenario, Cain's plan would still impose higher taxes on 77 percent of U.S. households, the report said.

The Tax Policy Center is a research group formed by two Washington think tanks: the Urban Institute and the Brookings Institution. Researchers at the center regularly testify before Congress on tax policy. The center's analyses during the 2008 presidential campaign were widely circulated.

The center said researchers tried to consult with Cain's advisers to make sure they were interpreting the plan correctly, but they had not heard back.

___

Associated Press writer Steve Peoples contributed to this report.


Comments
Showing comments in chronological order
[Show most recent comments first]

Apples to Oranges that simple ..........Nevada and New Hampshire get sales tax and a bushel of Oranges & Apples

-- Posted by MsMarylin on Wed, Oct 19, 2011, at 9:09 AM

THE PLAN WORKS IF YOU DONT BUY ANYTHING.....DUH.I PRSONALLY CAN NOT AFFORD A 2,000.00+ tax increase I dont know about the rest of you.Again we assume the top 1% will create jobs.....they havnt so far so now what? I dont care for the IRS,but the code needs to be simplefied without lobbyist in the room helping to do it. MY THOUGHTS ONLY.

-- Posted by lamont on Wed, Oct 19, 2011, at 9:18 AM

Well the biggest thing out there is that he has presented something instead of promising to reform what has been proven to not work.

The actual cost savings of eliminating thousands of pages of rules and regulations would free up additional monies for other things such as eliminating the debt. It may not be perfected yet, but at least it is a start.

The government holds on to its love of paperwork instead of moving on the the 21st century. If we can whittle down the rhetoric, maybe we could see the forest for the trees.

Roy, I hope that things are going well for you.

-- Posted by KH Gal on Wed, Oct 19, 2011, at 11:32 AM

The part that worries me about Cains 9-9-9 plan is what it would do to the economy in the short term. I've done the math on my particular tax situation and for ME it equates to a substantial tax savings, IF I curb my spending in order to save on the new federal sales tax. Now if the tens of millions who are in the same or lower tax brackets do the same, then you're looking at a substantial amount of money NOT being spent.

Even though Cain says the tax doesn't apply to purchases of NEW cars and houses, I can see this having a profound effect on the auto and housing industry. Who, other than the ultra rich, is going to build a brand new house when they know they are going to be taxed 9% on it? It would be much more cost effective to just buy one of the myriad of older homes for sale. Same thing for cars. Why buy a $30-40K car when you can buy a used one and save yourself 9%? Big ticket consumer electronics will take a hit also such as computers and televisions.

To me it looks like this will lead to a further divide between "the haves" and the "have nots". You'll have an entire class, millions of Americans, subsisting on the hand me downs from those that can afford to buy new.

Now for those that do see a savings and are willing to spend and incur the 9% tax, their dollars are not going to be enough to keep the economy moving. For those that get a savings and DON'T spend, where is that money going to go....THE BANK. Perpetuating the same banking mess we're in now.

-- Posted by Amuzeme on Wed, Oct 19, 2011, at 11:53 AM

JCW, I'm referring to 9-9-9 as a bill of goods, not Mr. Cain. I have done the math. After state sales tax,federal sales tax,federal income tax,state income tax,utilities,fuel to get to work,state mandated auto insurance,Medicare tax,Social Security,property tax, no deductions and no credits, either we eat and lose the house or keep the house and don't eat. As far as the head tax, we make 35k a year, deduct 20k off the top leaves 15k minus all the other taxes, basically no income and homeless. Oh yea a great idea.

-- Posted by royincaldwell on Wed, Oct 19, 2011, at 4:56 PM

Baloney sandwiches and pink underwear: Overfed and over sexed...where's the harm?

Seems pretty Conservative to me.

-- Posted by junkyard dog on Wed, Oct 19, 2011, at 6:07 PM

The main issue I have with 9-9-9 is no capital gains taxes period. Those who make millions in capital gains every year and that is their only income pay absolutely zero income tax. Talk about a tax break, from 15% or 35% to 0%. Ya gotta love it.

-- Posted by royincaldwell on Wed, Oct 19, 2011, at 6:48 PM

Mike, I have a question. I assume you get a military pension, correct? Is it exempt from income taxes? Even if it isn't, goodbye standard deduction, goodbye personal exemption. Welcome 15% sales tax plus 9% of your gross income.

-- Posted by royincaldwell on Wed, Oct 19, 2011, at 7:11 PM

One hand washes the other.........All seniors on SS get a cost of living raise in January.........Next week they will announce Medicare Premiums are going up........ Can't win..... Yeaaaaaaa finally after 2 years SS gets a raise..........Boo Hoo Medicare takes the raise away

-- Posted by MsMarylin on Wed, Oct 19, 2011, at 7:29 PM

Yeah but cain keeps changing what he says. He flip flops....... Cain doesn't make pretty speech's .........he sings hymns and does a tap dance around what he says

-- Posted by MsMarylin on Thu, Oct 20, 2011, at 10:27 AM

Obama is showing our Country who the front runner is :)

-- Posted by MsMarylin on Thu, Oct 20, 2011, at 11:02 AM

Well CJW, no response to what 9-9-9 would do to me?

How many on here can stand to lose all deductions and exemptions plus pay 9% more in sales tax?

I agree the I.R.S. is out of control, mainly because the tax code is a bad joke written by those who can afford to buy legislation.

Also I notice no responses to the comment I made about those whose only income is capital gains, and they would pay zero in income taxes.

Come on folks, stop and think. Look at the nuts and bolts and stop listening to those who would profit the most. They are not to be trusted.

-- Posted by royincaldwell on Thu, Oct 20, 2011, at 12:04 PM

CJW, My gross is 35k @ 9% = 3150 My taxable income 17k @ 15% = 1020. My taxes just tripled plus an additional 9% in sales taxes.

So tell me, how much does your income go up or down?

-- Posted by royincaldwell on Thu, Oct 20, 2011, at 2:32 PM

CJW, Trading in stocks results in capital gains. Just look at Wall Street, what do they do? If today you buy a stock for $100 and sell it in 6 months, you pay 35% (way too much), if you hold it long enough to reach long term gains you pay 15%(reasonable), under 9-9-9 you pay 0%. The reason for the large difference in short term and long term is to discourage speculation. By the way, commodities fall under the same rules. You know, those people who have a great deal of control over gasoline and oil prices because they deal in futures.

I may not have a college degree, but I do read a lot, and research a lot. Just on the job training I guess.

-- Posted by royincaldwell on Thu, Oct 20, 2011, at 2:42 PM

Roy:

What is your opinion on Joe Biden pushing the Jobs bill by saying women will be raped or murdered because we can't hire enough policeman?

I am not making a judgement, just asking your opinion? I would call that fear tactics and pretty despicable myself.

Especially after they squandered nearly a trillion dollars on companies who paid them sizable campaign contributions.

Quite frankly regardless of party, this is beyond the pale for anyone to do.

Cain's ideas may or may not work, but at least he is putting them out there and not mumbling about tax reform.

-- Posted by KH Gal on Thu, Oct 20, 2011, at 3:27 PM

What I think of Joe Biden can't be said on this blog. The level of ethics in politics is all but non-existent. Like I said on another blog here, I am truly fearful for the fate of our nation going forward. The hate, lies and half truths, there is boundary. The moral and ethical line in the sand is long gone. Lost is the voice of reason and consensus. The thirst for money, power and vengeance rule the day. In the end, we will all be the losers.

-- Posted by royincaldwell on Thu, Oct 20, 2011, at 3:50 PM

Whops, I meant there is no boundary.

-- Posted by royincaldwell on Thu, Oct 20, 2011, at 3:51 PM

People who cannot count will always be at the mercy of people who can. Mathematics does not care how you feel or what your political leanings are.

CJW,

Would you please tell us readers what "loopholes" a person who grosses $35,000 a year can jump through?

-- Posted by junkyard dog on Thu, Oct 20, 2011, at 9:59 PM

CJW, a loophole is when a company can make a 6 billion dollar profit, not pay any income taxes and get a tax refund! Every taxpayer is allowed the standard deduction and personal exemptions regardless of income. I never stated that the progressive tax structure was fair or that I supported it. It sure does seem like you have no problem with taxing those who have the least to the point that there is no reason to work. I don't begrudge you your income or education, as long as your income is earned honestly and fairly. If you make a living out of taking advantage of others, I don't know what to say.

-- Posted by royincaldwell on Thu, Oct 20, 2011, at 10:47 PM

I would consider myself middle class. My current Federal Income tax bracket is 25% (boy would I love to see it drop to 9%). But let's just say I was a Part time minimum wage worker, then my Federal Income tax bracket would be 10% and so even they would see a slight decrease. This also affects goods like gas. The current Federal Excise Tax is 18% and 24% on Diesel. So the low wage worker and myself would see about a .30 cents per gallon drop and that is without my fuel rewards card. Cain also said this does not affect Social Security but that program needs to be over hauled because of the abuse. I would also suggest you go to his web site and read about the plan for yourself. http://www.hermancain.com/999plan

Love you dad!

-- Posted by CrazieKids on Thu, Oct 20, 2011, at 11:07 PM

For all you guys that are asking questions about what the 999 plan would do for you check this out. Take your pay stub or tax return and run your gross income in the excel spreadsheet and then on the second link you can put in what you pay for taxes currently and pick an item and see how much you would save. http://raisingcain2012.wordpress.com/abo...

and http://999calculator.net/.

You can also find more information about the plan and Herman Cain at http://www.hermancain.com/h

Pete

-- Posted by pjluckyman on Fri, Oct 21, 2011, at 5:23 AM

Here is where Herman will talk about the Opportunity zones. http://www.hermancain.com/livestream

-- Posted by pjluckyman on Fri, Oct 21, 2011, at 5:31 AM

I read through the responses and I have some answers back to some of the statements made by you guys.

THE PLAN WORKS IF YOU DONT BUY ANYTHING.....DUH.I PRSONALLY CAN NOT AFFORD A 2,000.00+ tax increase I dont know about the rest of you.Again we assume the top 1% will create jobs.....they havnt so far so now what? I dont care for the IRS,but the code needs to be simplefied without lobbyist in the room helping to do it. MY THOUGHTS ONLY.

- Posted by lamont on Wed, Oct 19, 2011, at 9:18 AM

Response to Lamont,

If you use the excel spread sheet in the link that I posted I think you will find that you aren't paying more. You have to make less than 13k a year and use 0% of your income on new goods and you would break even on your tax burden. 18K is considered the poverty level so you probably would qualify for some type of assistance.

The part that worries me about Cains 9-9-9 plan is what it would do to the economy in the short term. I've done the math on my particular tax situation and for ME it equates to a substantial tax savings, IF I curb my spending in order to save on the new federal sales tax. Now if the tens of millions who are in the same or lower tax brackets do the same, then you're looking at a substantial amount of money NOT being spent.

Even though Cain says the tax doesn't apply to purchases of NEW cars and houses, I can see this having a profound effect on the auto and housing industry. Who, other than the ultra rich, is going to build a brand new house when they know they are going to be taxed 9% on it? It would be much more cost effective to just buy one of the myriad of older homes for sale. Same thing for cars. Why buy a $30-40K car when you can buy a used one and save yourself 9%? Big ticket consumer electronics will take a hit also such as computers and televisions.

To me it looks like this will lead to a further divide between "the haves" and the "have nots". You'll have an entire class, millions of Americans, subsisting on the hand me downs from those that can afford to buy new.

Now for those that do see a savings and are willing to spend and incur the 9% tax, their dollars are not going to be enough to keep the economy moving. For those that get a savings and DON'T spend, where is that money going to go....THE BANK. Perpetuating the same banking mess we're in now.

-- Posted by Amuzeme on Wed, Oct 19, 2011, at 11:53 AM

Response to Amuzem,

In your first paragraph I disagree with your assumptions because it is proven people will spend as much as they make and usually above their means.

In your second paragraph the tax does apply to new cars and homes. It doesn't apply to used items like cars and homes. You have a 400 home surplus of USED homes in Mt. Home. I know this because mine is one of them and I have dropped the price 100K and I still can't get anyone to look at it because people are building and buying NEW homes. Same applies here that did in the previous paragraph and that is people will buy new items especially if they have more money in their pocket.

Your third and fourth paragraphs are based off of your assumptions in the first two paragraphs and if your incorrect there your whole hypothesis here is wrong too.

JCW, I'm referring to 9-9-9 as a bill of goods, not Mr. Cain. I have done the math. After state sales tax,federal sales tax,federal income tax,state income tax,utilities,fuel to get to work,state mandated auto insurance,Medicare tax,Social Security,property tax, no deductions and no credits, either we eat and lose the house or keep the house and don't eat. As far as the head tax, we make 35k a year, deduct 20k off the top leaves 15k minus all the other taxes, basically no income and homeless. Oh yea a great idea.

-- Posted by royincaldwell on Wed, Oct 19, 2011, at 4:56 PM

The main issue I have with 9-9-9 is no capital gains taxes period. Those who make millions in capital gains every year and that is their only income pay absolutely zero income tax. Talk about a tax break, from 15% or 35% to 0%. Ya gotta love it.

-- Posted by royincaldwell on Wed, Oct 19, 2011, at 6:48 PM

Response to Roy,

If you make 35K a year you would have to spend 89% of your income on NEW goods to break even with your tax burden from last year. Take your Gross income from your tax return last year and put it I the calculator.

Second paragraph.

Yes the rich will be better off but they will put that money to good use hiring people and putting them to work but the real key is don't worry about the Jones and worry about Roy. That is the problem with the Occupy Wall Street crowd they are worried that everyone is getting some but them. Also with this the tourists, the drug dealers, the illegals, and anyone that gets paid in cash will now be part of the tax base and contribute to the economy! It also allows you to determine how much of your income you want taxed and put towards the "common good". Invest, save, or spend it all it will be your choice how and when you give YOUR money to the gov't. They don't get to take it off the top where you have no say. Just my opinion.

Pete

-- Posted by pjluckyman on Fri, Oct 21, 2011, at 6:02 AM

http://www.dickmorris.com/blog/defending...

-- Posted by pjluckyman on Fri, Oct 21, 2011, at 6:06 AM

USA Today finally made a half-hearted attempt to cover Joe Biden's outrageous behavior.

It is in today's version. The Headline is Not as big as the Senate voting against parts of the Jobs Act.

I find it amusing that it is written that the Republicans voted against it, but no mention of how many Democrats did and who they were.

-- Posted by KH Gal on Fri, Oct 21, 2011, at 9:04 AM

I know that but some people don't read Fox News or wil not accept an article presented by it.

-- Posted by KH Gal on Fri, Oct 21, 2011, at 9:33 AM

Pete, a response to the no income tax for billion dollar profit companies. The company doesn't dispute the report. It is a publicly traded company. It is headquartered in the U.S. Millions of Americans buy it's products. The U.S. government buys from it. It freely admits it hires the best lawyers and accountants that used to help write the tax code, to find and use every exemption there is. I'll stop here so as not to start WW3 on this blog.

-- Posted by royincaldwell on Fri, Oct 21, 2011, at 9:44 AM

Sorry, my last comment should have been addressed to CJW.

-- Posted by royincaldwell on Fri, Oct 21, 2011, at 9:46 AM

Grr, I forgot the link.

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/general-e...

-- Posted by royincaldwell on Fri, Oct 21, 2011, at 9:57 AM

I just watched Mr. Cain's speech in Detroit. It appears that everyone will not be treated all the same. Check out the transcript of his speech for particulars.

On a side note, could we ask for a better October morning?!

-- Posted by DaveThompson on Fri, Oct 21, 2011, at 9:58 AM

pjluckyman,

Thanks for pointing out my error. I must have misread the new vs used portion of the plan.

KH Gal,

I just read the article online. It does mention the democrats who voted against it.

"Three members of the Senate Democratic caucus -- Ben Nelson of Nebraska, Mark Pryor of Arkansas and independent Joe Lieberman of Connecticut -- also voted against consideration of the Obama jobs plan."

Maybe they edited it after you read it?

-- Posted by Amuzeme on Fri, Oct 21, 2011, at 10:14 AM

SORRY PETE...I DONT NEED ASSISTANCE ANY ADDITIONAL TAXES TO MY MEASLY 70-100K A YEAR IS NOT APPRECIATED.The 9-9-9 joke does nothing to help me and nothing to help the country,short term especially and long term for sure.The rich are making money at record pace now they are NOT creating jobs,therfore I have no reason to believe they will in the near future.They will bring the country to it;s knees to defeat this president and I HAVE NO REASON TO BELIEVE THAT THAT WILL CHANGE ANY TIME SOON.The people who deal in cash are such a small part of the equation.How about corporate America being the issue and not the guy who is trying to survive.

Is the objective here to insure that the American dream is not attained.Who can afford 10% down on a new house and the 9% sales tax plus 9% on every new item you put in it???????The rich and only the Rich every one else can be satisfied with less than.Talk about class warfare,HOW SUBTLE IS THAT???????

TAXES right now are the lowest they have been in at least half a century and we are still complaining how about we stop the give aways to other country's take care of our own and produce here and sell to the world.But we are busy buying from the world and producing less and the rich are backing that premise because they are raking it in as the company's take it production elsewere and then send it back for sale.I dont care if we all pay the same as long as we all pay.sO SET THE TAX AT 9% FOR EVERYONE NO EXCEPTIONS AND NO WRITE OFFS AND GET ON WITH IT.gOVERNMENT COLLECTS FROM PAYCHECKS LIKE ANY BUSINESS IT NEEDS ON GOING CAPITAL TO GO.I CAN DEAL WITH THAT. I CANT DEAL WITH CORPORATIONS ESPECIALLY BILLION DOLLAR ENTERPRISES PAYING NO TAXES AND SAYING LOOK AT SALLEY SHE IS NOT PAYING.tHE RIGHTWING SUPREME COURT SAID CORPORATIONS ARE PEOPLE THEN THEY OUGHT TO PAY LIKE PEOPLE AND FACE THE SAME PENALITYS.SORRY PETE CANNOT GO FOR 9-9-9.iT MAY DO SOMETHING FOR YOU DOES NOTHING FOR MOST OF US EXCEPT MAKE LIFE HARDER.

-- Posted by lamont on Fri, Oct 21, 2011, at 10:28 AM

CJW, ah, largely, not completely. They take American jobs offshore, employ foreign workers, shelter their income there, and then import those goods back to us to buy. Sounds reasonable. Decimate American manufacturing and create an economy based on consumerism only. Sounds like the good, right and proper thing to do.

-- Posted by royincaldwell on Fri, Oct 21, 2011, at 11:33 AM

CJW, your talking to me as if I'm ignorant about money. I'm not. I'm mad as Hades about what has happened to our country, our souls have been sold to the highest bidder. We have been scammed and conned to the point it's almost impossible to tell who is telling the truth. But know this, we are in debt and beholden to the likes of China and Russia and it seems like no one cares. Yes spending is out of control. The tax code is the biggest joke in history. No matter how you look at it tax structure is unfair all the way around. It can not be denied the working poor are getting poorer, but that matters not, just cut MY taxes is all I've heard. No real solutions. Even Mr. Cain has admitted that exemptions will be needed for the poorest. This goes hand in hand with his proposal to eliminate the minimum wage in certain instances. How much less is acceptable? 15k a year is too much? This whole me first mentality is leading to the downfall of our nation.

-- Posted by royincaldwell on Fri, Oct 21, 2011, at 1:47 PM

CJW...please dont twist what i am saying.....THE LARGEST PART OF WEALTH TO THE LITTLE GUY IS HIS /HER HOUSE.I am not saying they should not save for downpayments.I am saying by the time you get all of that there is nothing left At ALL. I saved, I bought invested,realestate, stock etc and I also took a bath for the second time in my lifetime.MY savior is myself however the system is rigged and we all dont get to survive it.IF YOU CJW have reached a certain threshold you are probally ok but there are millions who are not.if you are located in idaho did you read the staesman today??????? SEEMS like ALABAMA FARMERS HAVE A MAJOR PROBLEM...that problem will become ours very shortly.Now the same folks who you say eat from there investments grocery bills are going to rise dramatically and alabama is the tip of the iceberg.I GUESS YOU SEE NOTHING WRONG WITH BIG BUSNESS OR CORPORATE AMERICA...AND I AM NOT SAYING THEY ARE ALL BAD....MY PROBLEM IS THEY HAVE NO AMERICAN ALLEGIANCE,AND WE SHOULD BE THERE PRIORITY.401K'S were sold as the greatest thing ever they were not and are not.Some times I cant believe that a person gets paid more than some country's gdp.And we can look down our noses at those who work hard all there life ,how is that done and then we scheme on how we can get more from them.IS THAT AMERICA ??????? yes MAKE MONEY BE SELF SUSATAINING BUT NOT AT THE EXSPENSE OF YOUR FELLOW MAN.....MY THOUGHTS.

-- Posted by lamont on Fri, Oct 21, 2011, at 1:51 PM

CJW....do not get me wrong I am not advocating a welfare nation or community.How you spend your money and what you do is your thing no argument.I too have done what you say. What I make now is after my WORKING life.I know how you feel I am simply saying that people can work all there life and do the right thing and still get nowhere.It is not for us to make up for that, it is in our best interest to make sure there are no speed bumps that turn into walls.In my life I have bought 2 yes 2 thing brand new that was major.MY first house and a camper.So like you I buy what I am going to get the most out of not what the jones have.

I would be the first to tell you welfare as it is in place today is without a dought wastefull,fraudulent,patronizing and makes people dependent.WITH THAT SAID WE SHOULD BE IN THE FACE OF THE ADMINISTRATORS.They are not doing there jobs and you and I can see that everyday.A 10YR OLD CADDILAC DOESNT BOTHER ME,BUT A 2011 SLVERADO DOES.AND YES THEY HAVE A CHOICE.I will tell you this everyone in those houses do not get subsidized rent.How much you get is based on your income and you would be surprised who would qualify.Anyhow that is all another story.

I must have said it wrong I am not questioning saving for a down payment most do that.I AM SAYING BASED ON THE TAX PLAN YOU WILL SLEEP ON THE FLOOR FOREVER. Not that it doesnt happen now.My response was aimed at the tax plan and my view is just another view.I can respect what you say and your feelings, at times I have the same.

My FATHER did back breaking construction in N.Y. all his life 3 kids.MOM worked full time.AND WENT TO SCHOOL, they saved and bought a house they both died from.I was brought there as a 1 yr old,my sister and brother both born to that house.My DAD died with and 8th grade education,my MOM had a PHD they both sacrificed so all of us would have a good life.Everyone in my family owns there own home and nobody was given anything by the government,WE WERE LUCKY,HARD WORKING NO NONSENSE PEOPLE WE STILL ARE BUT WE INSTILL THAT IN EVERY FAMILY MEMBER TO INCLUDE EXTEND FAMILY AND FRIENDS.I WILL TELL YOU WE HELP EACH OTHER WITHOUT QUESTION AS LONG AS YOU ARE DOING THE RIGHT THING.I WOULD LIKE TO THINK OTHER PEOPLE ARE THE SAME WAY.

I will reach out and help,show me you have the desire and the honesty to give it your all and I will help....I DONT CONSIDER THAT WELFARE NOR DOES IT MAKE ME REPONSIBLE FOR YOU.I do consider it a way to make us all better........

DIDNT MEAN TO PREACH JUST TRYING TO LET YOU KNOW WHERE I AM COMMING FROM.......SO I TOO SAY STAND ON YOUR OWN AS LONG AS YOU CAN........YOU FALL THROUGH NO FAULT OF YOUR OWN I WILL REACH OUT............THAT'S ME..........TAKE CARE

-- Posted by lamont on Fri, Oct 21, 2011, at 6:14 PM

What are they doing with your retirement?

-- Posted by MsMarylin on Fri, Oct 21, 2011, at 9:17 PM

A link to "Two Calculators to Determine How Much You'll Pay Under Herman Cain's 9-9-9 Plan"

Some may find these handy, or not.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-blog...

I haven't downloaded these, and don't know if they're virus free, so be careful.

-- Posted by DaveThompson on Fri, Oct 21, 2011, at 10:39 PM

--I couldn't help but to think................."Isn't it amazing how they can stand so straight yet be so crooked!"

Love it Bazookaman!

-- Posted by pjluckyman on Fri, Oct 21, 2011, at 11:37 PM

They lowered your pay or taxed you more?

-- Posted by MsMarylin on Sat, Oct 22, 2011, at 9:01 AM

Well I was just curious because Pat receives Civil Service Retirement, and thought maybe I better take a look at his........

-- Posted by MsMarylin on Sat, Oct 22, 2011, at 11:17 AM

So will I get a letter telling me what their going to take out?

-- Posted by MsMarylin on Sat, Oct 22, 2011, at 1:14 PM

Ok Thanks zook I'm going to go through our records and see what I find out...

-- Posted by MsMarylin on Sat, Oct 22, 2011, at 3:14 PM

re: Retirement plan changes; for some more perspective read "Retirement Heist" by Ellen E. Schultz

For more background see: http://www.retirementheist.com/

-- Posted by DaveThompson on Sun, Oct 23, 2011, at 8:35 AM

CJW......YOU Notice how so many things are the same no matter who or what you are?I also thought it was kinda funny that we are both saying the same thing we just put it different.All done without the previous garbage(name calling) my pleasure thankyou.........we all keep TALKING we might get something done.........GOT to read daves link see what's happening.....latter

-- Posted by lamont on Sun, Oct 23, 2011, at 12:14 PM


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A View From The Independent Side
Roy Pratt
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I'm an almost 61 year old transplant from California 6 1/2 years ago. I work in road construction, those dastardly flaggers. My family roots go back to New England farms, not the big city. The last town I lived in when in California grew from 16K to 40K in 10 years, and that was enough to drive me out. I don't engage in or tolerate name calling. Name calling reduces an adult discussion to grade school play yard level. I have never served in the military, but have family members who have, dating back to WW1. I am neither a Democrat nor a Republican. I am neither extremely Liberal or Conservative. I am raising my 16 year old grandson, not what I expected at this age, and dealing with those issues as well as my health and near retirement which are 2 things I intend to talk about. I decided to try my hand at this thanks to the warm welcome I have received on Mike's blog. When I take a position, I will defend it until I am shown that I am mistaken, and when that happens, I apologize. There are other things about me that will come out over time I'm sure.