Gays in the Military Walk Gentle !

What happened to the "novel" part?

SAME GARBAGE DIFFERENT TARGET.....HEARD IT ALL BEFORE.........THEY WILL SUFFER IN SILENCE ,THEY WILL OVERCOMPENSATE,THEY WILL SERVE HONORABLE.GET OVER IT.!!!!!!!!!!! YES THIS PRESIDENT SIGNED IT. IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN DONE 20YRS AGO..........ARTHUR ASH died of aids straight as and arrow got it on the operating table ......Yes blood......but we didnt know what we know now.could it happen on the battlefield.....yes.....all things considered thats better than dyeing for lack of blood.The assumption that only homosexuals have aids has been debunked a long time ago.TRANSMITTAL OF THE DESEASE DOES NOT REQUIRE SEXUAL CONTACT.

THE UCMJ IS THE UCMJ....VIOLATE AND YOUR IN TROUBLE THE RULES APPLY ACROSS THE BOARD.aS LONG AS EVERYONE REMEBERS THAT WE WILL BE ALRIGHT.THERE WILL BE EXCEPTIONS ,THEY DONT NEED TO BE BLOWN OUT OF PROPORTION.............

Lamont.........Lamont........you and I together represent exactly FIFTY YEARS of service.........man, that's HALF a century!

You KNOW the sacrifices involved, and the crap we've had to endure, so all these civilians san sit back on their butts and reap the harvest throughout their lives.

The CIVILIANS who've been RUNNING this country have not only made a MOCKERY of the Constitution we fought to defend.........but they've made a laughing stock of out country and are turning our military into one big "Frat House!"

Left unchecked, they will turn the UCMJ into another branch of the ACLU.

These yellow-bellied, spineless jackals who aren't MEN ENOUGH to fight for the freedoms they enjoy...........are NOT QUALIFIED to tell a true warrior how he's supposed to think, what he's supposed to do, what "new standards he's supposed to accept."

They aren't leaders....they're LEECHES!

It's a disgrace and an insult to every one of our brothers who has ever put his own life on "hold" to keep the TIMID back here safe.

How can this be "ok" with you?

Today is Sunday, and when I get to church this morning, I am DEFINITELY gonna give thanks that I got to live in America was it still WAS America.

I don't know WHAT is is around here anymore, but it's nothing I recognize today. The wind needs to stay calm today. It really does!

I can't rationally deal with this right now.

Bazookaman, your argument is weak right now. MANY people who are not gay have AIDs and other diseases that can be passed through blood. Many don't even know it. By your logic, no one should give blood in the situation you used and anyone needing blood should just be left to die.

NO, it'sjustme again..............this COUNTRY is WEAK! It's scruples and VALUES are weak.

There is no SPINE "up-top" and a huge GAGGLE of trained seals who have forgotten what it means to be....................aw, SCREW IT!

It's a waste of time. I gotta shut this friggin' thing off and get OUT of here.

I have a question for those who have served and have fought in a war.

When "Don't Ask Don't Tell" was in place and you were out in the field and needing a blood transfusion would you have been better off not knowing that the blood you were going to get was from a Gay Man?

I'm thinking not all Gay Men look or act like they are Gay, so if they don't say "Yeah I'm Gay"

will you really know if they are Gay?

Even if every one voted NO that would not keep them out. Some don't act, or look Gay.....There always have been and will always be Gay's in the Military.

Would you want to know who your serving next to, or pretend their not in the Military ?

What about that drug user who has HIV but no one knows he's using ?

Any tax paying civilian who funds the largest military effort in the world absolutely has the right to opine on the how the military conducts its business. The notion that civilians do not have this right because we're getting fat while the military protects our freedoms is not only misguided, it is a gross misrepresentation of fact, feeling, and truth. Not a single, concerted military effort that has occurred during my lifetime has advanced the freedoms that I enjoy as an American or made me feel safer at home or abroad. We lost the Vietnam War and still the communists did not invade. Desert Storm was not our war to fight and resulted only in making tens of thousands of our military men and women mentally and physically compromised. The current two wars have done nothing but erode the very freedoms that they claim to protect. Case in point: At home, our phone's can now be tapped without a warrant and individuals can be forced to trial without a jury; Abroad, Osama is still at large, terrorism has risen to unprecedented levels, and it is no longer safe for an American to travel or live anywhere in the Arab world. The global hate of American military efforts was bad prior to the Wars in Iraq and Afghanistan--now that hate has risen to truly dangerous levels even in counties we consider our allies. I know because I have lived and traveled abroad extensively---including Europe, Asia, South America and the Arab world. NOONE outside of this country ( and I mean NOONE) believes in what our military is doing or that ANYONE is safer and better off for it.

As far as gays in the military goes, Obama signed the legislation at the prompting of the highest military officials. Nearly 70% of the over 100,000 servicewomen and men surveyed agreed that gays should be allowed to opening serve. If the survey sample is reflective of the entire military, and were the gay issue put out to vote---Gays would win by a landslide. The reason?

It's called progress. In a progressive country. Whose founding was passionately pursued by progressive ideals. And while some will spend their day firing off their guns in fantasy of killing gay men and women, they will be remembered a century from now as the ignorant minority who unsuccessfully tried to thwart the progress that is the very lifeblood of this country. But it doesn't really matter---the war's over, you lost. Gay marriage is next.

Give it up Zook,

The last time you were ever dropped into a hot LZ, AIDS hadn't even been heard of. The greatest threat to your sexual health and orientation was "non specific urethritis", AKA clap; or C-Ration Ham 'n Eggs.

AIDS is a disease; not a sexual orientation. If a "gay" revives you with CPR, plugs your wounds and drags you back to safety from the kill zone, what are you going to do to get your self respect back??? Return the heart beats, tear off the pressure dressings, rip out the IVs?!...demand that you be returned to certain death or capture.?!!

All I care about "gays in the military" is whether or not they support the U.S. Constitution; and that they are competent and dependable life-takers.

All the people who are afraid of gays in the military - how brave can we assume they will act when the bullets stop flying.

Afraid of a gay guy looking at you - is it because your member will expose you as what you really are. Or simply have an anxiety attack if you know the first thing about human sexuality adn physiology.

Afraid of a gay in your foxhole with you. Would you rather have no-one looking out in the other direction for the enemy sneaking up on you with a knife.

And would you rather see others of your unit - your comrades in arms ending up dead because the gays got kicked out.

Or would you rather not serve your country to support your own prejudices.

while every last NATO country except Islamic turkey recognizes the contributions of gay people to their mil and allows them to serve openly.

Nice group of people the "keep DADT" folks are similar to.........

GEt over it , grow up, realize that there are many gays - an estimated 100,ooo protecting you and America. with their life if necessary.

And I;ll bet that you'd love to see a couple chicks going at it with each other.

And btw, you should be glad that half of the Army nurse corp, per some gay people I know who have a terrific ability to know who is what, are serving there, ready to work 24 hours a day to save your life if necessary.

think about it

I see so many points. I do not see one simple answer. I read and read and thought "Yes, that's a good point" and then again "Yes, that's a good point" and over and over.

Someone said we are talking of people...let's treat them like it. I like that.

And.... Aids is a disease, not a sexual orientation. Alot is said with that statement. We know so much more about AIDS than we did years ago. You/We/He/She/I can get AIDS from a straight person/woman/man/child/infant. How sad is that? But it's true.

Fear can be an amazing stimulus.... Education can be wonderfully soothing.

So, I know straight men that would not consider "taking a bullet" for anyone. But I know Gay men that would in a second. So....?

No answers

Jessie

MTN HOMMER....YOU DONT KNOW WHAT I HAVE DONE....SO....I WAS AMONG THE ORIGINAL CADRE OF PEOPLE WHO WERE CALLED SOCIAL ACTIONS,OUR MISSION WAS TO ENSURE A BETTER MILITARY ENVIROMENT FOR ALL SERVICE PERSONELL,WE TAUGHT HUMAN RELATIONS,WE INSURED PEOPLE ADDICTED TO DRUGS AND ALCOHOL RECEIVED TREATMENT,NOT JAIL,WE ENSURED WOMEN ,MINORITYS AND ALL PEOPLE RECIEVED EQUAL TREATMENT AND JUSTICE.WE DID FAMILY COUNCILLING AND WE WERE ADVISERS TO OUR COMMANDERS (wing)DONT TELL ME WHAT I HAVE DONE.YOU Seem TO GET SOME PERVERSE PLEASURE IN YOUR ATTEMPTS TO PUT ME DOWN.YOU CANT MTN HOMMER IV DONE MORE IN MY LIFE THAN YOU CAN POSSIBLE IMAGINE, SO IF YOU WANT TO VILLIANIZE LOOK AT WHAT YOU DO.SHE HAS AND AGENDA ....THE FACT THAT SHE MENTIONED THE ATTACKERS WERE (BLACK) UNLESS THERE WAS A DIFFERENT REASON FOR THE ATTACK THERE WAS NO REASON TO MENTION THERE RACE,,,,,,SHE WAS SOPPOSED TO BE TALKING ABOUT LESBIANISM,SO MY OBSERVATION WILL REMAIN.MS DONNELLY CAME AFTER WE HAD ALREADY DONE THE JOB. I WENT BACK AND LOOK IN MY PAPERS AND SHE IS NOT THERE. MTN HOMMER YOU CAN LOOK UP THE DEFENSE RACE RELATIONS INSTITUTE AMONG THE OTHERS I GRADUATED FROM. NOT TO MANY PEOPLE GOT TO GO. HER OPINIONS ARE NOT THE ONLY ONES THAT COUNT AND NEITHER ARE MINE.MY EMOTIONS HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH IT.you need to get of that stereotype it is old.YOU WANT AND OPEN MIND TO YOUR COMMENTS ,YOU GET THAT. WHY DONT YOU TRY AND GIVE IT BACK.DONT TRY AND TELL PEOPLE WHAT THEY HAVE DONE,YOU CAN ASK.Would that be to much to ask or are you above that.And lets remember facts are not without fault.So my emotions have a place wether you like it or not.If i were to do to you what you said to jesse i dont think you would like it.Remeber when you brought his child into it//////was that emotions mtn hommer or meaness??????????????????? and im asking????????

THE DAY YOU STOP PUTTING ME AND OTHERS DOWN WILL BE A BETTER DAY FOR ALL......the people I have MENTORED are MANY,and i will be REMEMBERED AND THEY COME IN ALL COLORS,GENDERS,ETHENICITY..THEY ARE WHAT COUNTS FOR ME.......NOT ENOUGH????????? EVEN THER KIDS KNOW OF ME.......I FEEL GOOD !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If this local blogsite is in any way "representive" of NATIONAL thought..........it's over. We are DONE as a nation.

revelator........as a taxpaying citizen, you have the right to opine as per the 1st Amendment........but no CIVILIAN should be involved in making decisions for the military when THEY aren't the ones to have to risk it all.

sjames........you are OBVIOUSLY not one who has ever been shot at, as I suspect that MOST on these blogs haven't.

No warrior "fears" a queer......he's CONCERNED about two things.......aids from a transfusion.....and the MENTAL STABILITY of the guy next to him who's thinking is screwed up in the FIRST place..........it just doesn't paint the picture of a guy you could rely on on a fight.

And for the record, not ALL of the service branch chiefs BENT OVER and licked Obama's shoes on this. We still have ONE HONEST TO GOD BRANCH OF THE MILITARY out there.

He was the lone 4-star, among the 5-stars.......but the ONLY one with the pride, the values and the GUTS to stand up to this "Pink Palace" on Pennsylvania Street!

Semper Fi, General..............Semper Fi, my brother...........we really ARE the FEW, and the proud.

This is a "minority" I've ALWAYS been proud to be in!

Yes, the Marine Commandant got out-voted, and Obama was gonna have his way anyway on this matter, but if things haven't changed terribly over the years----the first little "twinkle-toed cross-dresser" that tip-toes off the bus at San Diego or Parris Island will shortly wish he'd never HEARD of DADT.

The Corps ain't "politically correct"

Of course, neither am I, and PROUD OF THAT.

We've gone from a Republic, to a "democracy", and are now turning into a nation of socialist "UNDERSTANDING SHEEP!"

A bunch of low-life, lipstick packin' Pee-Wee Hermans out here!

Our one-time United States is being humiliated, sold out, a decent way of life flushed down the toilet..............and the worst of all........

so msny out there "just accept it"......that's just fine with YOU GUYS.......

From Valley Forge to Afghanistan..........it's all been for NOTHING hasn't it!!

And that "ok with you.................

Makes me sick.

MTN HOMMER I WISH YOUR SON WELL......YOU ON THE OTHER HAND NEED TO GO ANTAGONIZE SOME ONE ELSE.FLEECE THE GOVT.....GOOD THING OUR GUYS FROM NAMM GOT THE HELP THEY NEEDED I HOPE YOUR SON WONT NEED ANY.BUT IF HE DOES ONE OF OUR GUYS WILL BE THERE TO HELP.

YOUR SICK AND TIRED YOU OUGHT TO BE PEOPLE LIKE YOU HAVE CREATED MOST OF THE PROBLEMS WE HAVE.WHY DONT YOU GO AND ANTAGONIZE SOME ONE WHO CARES OR BETTER STILL TAKE YOUR HEAD OUT.MY COMMENT WAS MY OPINION AND I STATED THAT AND ILL STICK WITH IT.

I didnt sit home and reap the benifites of others.I saw her statment and it had some value but it didnt need to be qualified .Thats my opinion you disagree thats your business. I didnt attempt to smear her i made a comment about her report.did someone tell you that i admire JESSE JACKSON OR AL SHARPTON ?????? BECAUSE IF THEY DID THEY LIED TO YOU.AND I CERTAINLY DIDNT.

YOU WOULDNT BE IMPRESSED WITH ANYTHING I DID AND I DONT CARE...BECAUSE YOU DONT COUNT.I CAN SAY THIS MY 28 YRS WAS SPENT MAKING BETTER PEOPLE

WHAT HAVE YOU DONE FOR SOCIETY ?????????? CRITCISE????????? I GUESS THAT COUNTS.......I DONT KNOW WERE THOUGH. YOUR GOING TO TEST MY LAST NERVE ONE DAY........ AND I WILL GLADLY GET KICKED OFF........

That's completely BOGUS, PaleAle. First off, the Commandant DID stand up and oppose it---it was on every media front.

Secondly......Firedoglake is a LEFT WING Blogsite, and even Partridge HIMSELF admits this was NOT a USMC transcript.

You can look up your liberal references point for point............but it won't affect the outcome, if any of them DO get into boot camp, they'll wish they hadn't.

Hey cap-gun boy, you need to quit spitting on all military branches except your beloved "corps". You spent how much time as a marine? You need to get over yourself. You've got issues that you need to deal with; primarily, your inferiority complex. I don't know what you failed to achieve in life that causes you to project yourself as the last American hero, but you need to seek counseling and work that issue out. You've over-stated your service enough. And no matter whether you've served or not, you have NO RIGHT to trample on ANY branch of the Armed Forces.

HA HA

CJW You are a piece of work still in progress !

keep those situations coming

MsMarylin,

Se how you are.... I thought we had agreed to civil discourse, but as soon as you don't like my response I am a "piece of work still in progress"?

How mature and adult of you.

Ecouter,

""Maybe that will quell dogmatic hyperphobic jibber jabber. Both should be more afraid of genetic anomalies from intergenerational breeding than judging a human being who is willing to die to protect the very rights they are exploiting to express such malediction.""

Step away from the thesaurus! we are all now duly impressed with your superior intellect... all bow before the all knowing "cooter"

Get a grip will you insulting and attacking the messenger who has opinions different than yours isn't going to cut it, maybe you should do some more reading and not just from your thesaurus and come back, k then?

Hey

JCW

Here's 2 things you can do

1. Start your own blog so you won't be left out getting attention under your name

2. Stop commenting on my blog then I will have one less person giving me attention :)

I didn't trample on any other branch, liberal.......I just made a few points with OURS.

The only "issues" I have to deal with are the lily-livered scumbags of society who endorse the continued deterioration of this country.

Three years......if it's any of your business. Three HARD years....from 66 to 69.....when the action was the hottest over there.

I was probably shooting North Vietnamese Communists when you were shooting marbles.

Who did YOU serve with, MrMister?......or does all of YOUR "military expertese" come from "The View", "CNN" or the cover of the Rolling Stone?

I find it most amusing that there are SO MANY FRIGGIN' EXPERTS out there, who have never been on the INSIDE themselves..........yet they KNOW what's best for our warriors!

As for my "beloved Corps"............YOU DON'T HAVE A CLUE, slick.

It's the smallest branch of the four, and due to the the rigors of what's involved..........there aren't any LONG lines waiting to get in.

Yeah mister.........I've got "BRAGGING RIGHTS"......so has EVERY Marine. It's the toughest branch of the four, and not everybody MAKES it through boot camp. Advanced training is tougher because when the "spit hits the spam", we are nearly ALWAYS the first one in! The first "boots on the ground"

Active duty or retired, we are a BROTHERHOOD that celebrates the birthday every November 10th. I'd lay you pretty good odds there isn't a Airman, Sailor or Soldier who can tell you the date & place HIS branch was founded without having to look it up first.

This is an Air Force town. Take a drive around and look for military DECALS on the backs of cars & pickups........T-shirts, baseball caps and tattoos............those of us who were "CORPS"........it'll be pretty evident.

I "Trample" on nobody.......as is public knowledge, I did ANOTHER 19 years in the Air Force, and turned a lot of wrenches on airplanes. And I'm proud of that...........but those 19 years were nowhere NEAR as demanding as my time in the Marine Corps. And I''ve never felt the same sense of accomplishment.

Inferiority complex?.............are you crazy?

I'm 63 now now, dude..........and if Mountain Home was being INVADED TODAY, I would STILL be the first one out the door "locked & loaded" while the REST of you friggin' philosophers were hiding under your kitchen sinks.

I mention the Corps every now and then in my blogs and posts, and if YOU don't like it...or anybody ELSE don't like it.............well, that's just TOUGH ain't it!

I am fiercely PROUD of my Marine background. So is EVERY ONE of my brothers!

ALL four branches are necessary and they all have vital functions. But if ANYBODY could be a Marine-----it wouldn't be the Marines.

And that's just the "name of THAT tune."

If you've never been, you couldn't know.......and there is no way in any language to explain it.

Wow, more poking the bear and stepping back to see what reaction a person gets.

My biggest problem with any gay person is that they keep demanding rights that should not be theirs. We cannot make life fair for everyone, but we can respect the person as a whole, whether we agree with their lifestyle or not.

That being said, we should not legislate morality. It is a personal issue and should be kept private and not shoved in our faces daily with "characters" on TV or People with influence.

If you are happy with your choice in life, don't try to make everyone else accept your brand of "happiness".

We have seen more assaults on women in the military and other controversial incidents that keeps our troops from doing the job that they contracted to do.

Thank you all for your service to our country. I wouldn't care if you were purple as long as you didn't try to make a lifestyle choice an issue.

Quit Poking the BEAR!!!! No one will agree on this subject. Support our military and leave the rest of the stuff alone.

History has shown us what works and what breaks down a defense by a country. If you cannot trust the guy or gal next to you in the trenches, then we are weakened.

Hi there MNTNH, I am glad you bothered to slog through my long post. I felt a bit put upon to have to slog through all the negative talking points, but in the end, it was an illuminating exercise to keep going back to reality test the underlying antigay theme (creepy, weird, nasty, more or less); plus of course do my daily work professional thing, which is constantly check in with the available empirical data, and any underlying framework shifts that the data support for us.

On a more personal level, I could recall past or present gay/lesbian team members in various work projects, assignments, or settings where team work ranged from quite acceptable to outstanding. Thus, one, not at all disrupted or distracted by having one or more gay/lesbian folks on a highly skilled team. Thus, two, the team achievement was strongly increased sometimes, by the particular input of that/those gay/lesbian team members.

So I am more or less using all the three generous coping resources that I recommend to anybody else who might find them useful.

Here is a long reply.

I am not quite sure what answer I can make to your categorical, negative objection to ever, ever getting to know any real, live, contributing gay/lesbian person ... presumably, either in civilian or military life?

Given how the modern civilian workplace is changing and has changed, you might have a very difficult time if you apply to work for any of the Fortune 500 global companies which have non-discrimination policies/diversity policies for their workplaces. Surely you already know this?

In many job interviews, if you voice your mandate to be categorically distanced from any and all possible gay/lesbian people who might be part of your team, or who might be part of supporting your team, or who even might be part of directing/managing your team in the larger business or research directions?

Well, you may find yourself facing a very hard civilian dilemma. (Rather like gay/lesbian applicants in the 1940s or 1950s?)

Either you speak up and discover that (A) the company will not guarantee to you that you will categorically never, ever have to work with a gay/lesbian employee, pertinent to your company assignment and goals; or, you might keep silent, and still feel disrespected or frustrated because the company happens to later assign you without regard to whether or not you end up working with such gay/lesbian employees. This stress can only get higher if you discover that you have a gay/lesbian boss or manager; that some support staff who are critical for your work outcomes is gay/lesbian; and so forth.

On a more personal level, if you have ever attended a fairly large school or training program or political rally/movement, or church? The statistical chances are high that you have already rubbed shoulders and done some sort of team work , learning, and/or worship with one or more gay/lesbian people. The more antigay and fearful and resentful the various norms that a setting might adopt, the less that such unwanted people will feel free to be honest/open about their real lives. Still, the unwanted are present.

I do hear that you choose preserve your individual citizenship right to ignore/resist/refuse one of the most unexpected framework shifts that data has brought to us over the past decades. This was a big surprise, right across the boards, mainly because (A) in those research beginnings, very few people new gays/lesbians, up close and personal, plus (B) little solid empirical data was available. Then research got going, and a lot of us were so surprised at disconfirming and alternative data points that we got busy, doing even more research to check and double-check the unexpected findings.

You sound very firm and settled and satisfied with maintaining a framework that gay/lesbian citizens are categorically ... outside ... what medical/health/research people call ... normal limits. That is you personal right, though it is not a sufficient justification for any mistreatment of any real, live people you come across in your community, church, or work in our current century?

A number of DADT church settings do exist; but even there you cannot guarantee in fact that you are utterly distanced and apart from gay/lesbian believers or seekers. One odd skew that seems to apply in sub-populations of the overall global LGBTQ population? Some of the strongly conservative church communities really seem to be moving, away from a DADT sort of norm, to a more honest/open norm wherein gay/lesbian folks who observe their strict celibacy norms are welcomed to speak up about that ongoing discipline and life struggle, and the norm is shifting towards openly supporting those believers, not binding them through DADT patterns of church life.

Well, many more gay/lesbian folks than we would expect from random, neutral distribution statistics, seem to have been raised in very religious families and churches. Of course, all ... a really informative bit of very solid data points ... all gay/lesbian people were raised in innumerable straight families. All, grew up in a dominant straight culture.

I suspect that you don't subscribe to a second framework shift, either. That is, I would guess that you continue to stand strong in a legacy framework which says something like, "Being straight is the healthy/normal sort of humanity, and being gay/lesbian is some type of twist, tilt off kilter, or disorder that fails to result in somebody being a healthy/normal straight person."

That's one strong legacy framework, as I understand it, was trained in it, and so forth.

Since the USA is a predominantly pluralistic society in this century ... at least, so far? ...we leave lots of room, up to a point, for citizens to pledge any number of things that others might find distasteful, objectionable, or outright odd. Conflicting religions are expected to live together in a modicum of peace, no matter how much their beliefs or theologies conflict or contradict each other.

As with gay/lesbian folks, devout religious citizens might reasonably expect to be able to keep a safe distance from, say, Muslims, Unitarians, or atheists. But the more the global markets and workplaces predominate, the less likely such distances may become. If our society is this pluralistic, we live in a time of transition, flux, and change. A different religious or life philosophy team member may be around for six months on a project, or forever as a global CEO or COO.

Truly our religious life and culture have shifted away from being able to physically assault or punish many different individuals, even if we do not agree at all with their identities, beliefs, and sources of daily life guidance. Pentecostal Christian believers, for example, sincerely believe that God is giving them important spiritual and practical directions, immediately, in real daily life time. Nobody gets to criminalize them, or confront them physically, or hurt them ... even if everybody doesn't believe and live that way.

I applaud your notion that shared, fair citizenship or work teams or community life need not demand that we all sit around, talking about personal sex activities. That is why DADT can be repealed, for example, since being honest/open about being gay/lesbian is no more about specific sex acts being our mandated military or civilian discussion, than with straight folks. I don't generally ask, or know ... whatever sex my straight or gay/lesbian team members might have done last night with a partner, or alone. That is way too personal to be mentioned, unless of course, our team has also happened to become friends to the point that people can talk as friends, privately, more than just being a professional work team. The work goals and processes are usually mandated to some extent; that personal sort of close added friendship can hardly ever be mandated.

If somebody puts a photo of his/her life partner (often with kids) on a desk or lab cubicle, I am not expected to get into gay/lesbian sex details, any more than I would, seeing a straight person's photo of wife/husband/kids on that desk or lab cubicle shelf.

Who among us walks up to a department manager and asks what he/she did sexually in recent days?

So, maybe, tentatively ... I might infer that you are trying out (or, are just a bit on board) with a third framework shift. This shift tells us how gay/lesbian life these days is way more than sex details. Just as with straight workers, some social details are appropriate in the Fortune 500 modern global workplace, on occasion.

If a straight team member asks a gay/lesbian team member, What did you do over the past weekend? The reply can say many different things without going into sex details. As in: My partner and I took the kids to Six Flags on Saturday afternoon, and our youngest son got sick on a frozen soda, so he threw up on his older brother when they were riding the Dangerous Flaming Demon roller coaster. Or, I spent the weekend with my life partner at the hospital where he/she is being treated for cancer. Or, my partner and I took our nephew to the local gay/lesbian film festival, because he is doing a high school class paper on gay/lesbian film history.

I saved the big hot button for last.

Part one seems to read that you believe I am a certain sort of very dubious person.

Quote:I'll just bet you're one of those touchy feely "intellectuals" that truly believes you're ever so much smarter than the rest of us, so our views, our religion, and our opinions couldn't possibly be as valid as yours. Unquote.

I have to cop to some extent to being what you probably call an intellectual, but only so far.

I do have an advanced degree plus updates, as is required locally and nationally in my profession over the years. Trust me, if you were my patient or a member of my research team, you would not want me to be practicing without all that education, and updates in training.

Does this automatically make me the guy who cannot be openly included in a pertinent discussion, just because my mind is made up in a certain way and nothing else matters, or nothing else can affect me? You read as if you suspect this is true?

All I can reply, alternatively, is that being able to keep an open mind about research, data, methods, and underlying frameworks is a core part of my daily professional life. In the past two decades at least, evidence based health practices have become a constant ideal and practical services guideline. It is also the case that my daily work requires me to be fairly capable in talking with an extremely wide range of different people. Not only are our local work teams very, very diverse, but also our patients or consumers are diverse ... sometimes even more than our work teams. If/when I rarely get assigned to an ER setting, for example, we never really know what variety of person might walk in the door or be brought by police or ambulance.

I have solid personal views and beliefs about all sorts of issues, but my professional pledge is to be available to everybody I serve, within professional and legal limits.

Now, how about your description, to the effect that I must automatically think myself superior to other people, right across the boards? Or, to the effect that I do not (cannot?) credit other people with having different views, values, or faith commitments?

Lacking nonverbal cues, a post might possibly read these ways, I guess. But, really, I can honestly tell you that neither guess about me is all that true. If a patient shows up after a sexual assault, for example, my services will make every effort to take account of all the individual differences, contexts, that might apply to surviving such a trauma. You don't provide services to, say, a rave club patient in exactly the same way that you would provide services to a finally vowed religious order person. Evidence based practices are a steady core bit, but nearly everything else can be adjusted to individual differences.

As I read your posts, again without benefit of nonverbal cues, I get a sense that you are feeling very put upon. You can try just a bit of the shift from gay/lesbian being about sex details, to gay/lesbian being about identity and/or daily social life ... if even that much. But you strongly reserve the right to determine that shifting from social/identity to sex details is a failed project for you.

I would be forced by facts to agree with you, to the extent that you are noticing that churches or faith communities, along with other major institutions in our country, are definitely changing. Hardly any recognized USA profession, for example, officially subscribes to the legacy notion that (A) gay/lesbian folks are messed up straight folks who somehow failed to be straight. (All the empirical evidence so far trends towards an empirical continuum which varies from totally straight to totally gay/lesbian. We have data from innumerable human societies, and we have surprise data from too many animal species to list here.) ... plus (B) everything messed up in a gay/lesbian person's life can be tracked back, causally, to the person not being straight.

I think you are correct, if you are noting that churches/faith communities with similar legacy views have been deprived over time, of more and more power, over all those USA professions.

Something similar is going on with law, public policy, and basic institutions ... education, the modern work place in many locations, some churches/faith communities, and even daily civic life. Example, way back when? If, say, a marine outside the base happened to think that a man who looked gay to him was at all eyeing him, that marine might get physical with the guy. Assuming no permanent, or dire physical injuries resulted from the fisticuffs, the marine could expect that nearly everybody who followed up with him would seem the gay man as a provocation, and the marine's defense strikes as being manly. Over decades that norm has clearly shifted. A marine who puts his negative views of the gay man into physical action will more likely than not, be called on the carpet in some way. He will also have had some former marine training which told him, don't beat up the gays,if and when.

To that very extent, the negative views which also were accepted justifications, are no longer fully consistent with, say, a negative religious view of gay/lesbian people ... not even in the military. Again, those church/faith views have lost a lot of their traditional power to guide and justify all manner of physical responses to gay/lesbian citizens or soldiers. If you go far enough back in history, those religious authorities clearly had complete power to (A) burn gays/lesbians at the stake, or hang them via direct religious sentencing; or (B) determine if somebody was gay/lesbian, then hand that person over to the state for death penalty imposition.

That is a whole lot of real world power, and it has more or less been lost to any of the many Christian churches or other faith communities.

The power loss you are noting or feeling in your gut is true and real, so far as I can see.

As whatever type of straight person you are, you are not longer empowered to physically defend your manliness or womanliness when you come across some real person who demonstrates that gay/lesbian folks exist (not that this was ever really true for you, but I have professional experiences with street violence and with family violence, where similar legacy rights or powers do crop up as motives, reasons, justifications); nor do have very much power to keep a gay/lesbian family with kids from moving into the house down the street or even across town; not do you have much power to enact your sole religious or personal views into public policy, law, or institutional norms on very many occasions.

This all boils down to you now being part of a probable, defined minority, whose views do not have the high powers that we all gave them, way back when. I think minority life is almost always stressful, and it is no surprise that you might be feeling and protesting against the power decrease.

Well, maybe. Thus, I might add a fourth resource to my previous list. You can learn lots about newly being a minority, by making friends with other minority people who already know the ropes?

The question about how long you were a marine was rhetorical, "slick"; you've reminded everyone time and again of that major feat. My comments were directed at your continual assault on everyone who hasn't served and your elevation of yourself above them. And for the last time, I'm not a liberal, as I've told you in the past--guess your inability to accept criticism affects your memory too, eh hero?

And which part of "There's still at least ONE military outfit left" and "We still have ONE HONEST TO GOD BRANCH OF THE MILITARY out there" (referring to your corps) does not smack of trampling on the other services, eh hero?

And lastly, my "military expertese" doesn't come from any of those sources you listed above: Mine comes from 21 years, 7 months, and 10 days. You guess which service, hero.

PS to MrMister...........don't let that "liberal" tag shuffle you.............I'm so far to the right, Limbaugh, O'Reilly and Beck are are "liberals" next to me.

So you're probably in "good company" as you would see it.

Oh....that's fine......fact is Homer, in my own kind of way, i feel like Jimmy Carter, who is no longer our worst president.

I too, finally have somebody AHEAD of me!

And did you hear about the "burial at Sea" from the Carrier USS Carl Vinson?

Neat, eh? The world's # ONE terrorist, and we treat him like ROYALTY, while the widows of deceased US NAVY vets still have to hold the ashes, waiting for THEIR husbands to get buried at sea.

Makes ya PROUD, don't it?

They said on the news that we were just honoring "Muslim burial laws"........Since when does our NAVY follow MUSLIM LAW?

This has been a rough couple of days Homer, especially if one is truly an American. I really needed to get out there this afternoon, but the winds were too gusty for what I wanted to do. Maybe tomorrow.

(If the Chinese don't call in our notes and take over).

It should never have BEEN on that carrier to BEGIN with. the fact that no other country will TAKE his body, should answer your own question.

We should have treated his body the SAME WAY THEY TREAT OURS!

I WILL ask my pastor about that tomorrow when I see him in the morning. He TOO is a Vietnam Vet, so his answer should be interesting. He is also a DEMOCRAT, who did NOT vote for Obama. One of the RARE ones who votes PERSON, not Party.

I will make a POINT to discuss this matter.

Zook If the Navy Seals were the ones that went in an shot 22 people one which was Bin Laden and they need to run some DNA testing on him to make sure it was him where do you think they should of done the testing? Bin Laden compound ?

Hey Marylin.........you SPECIFICALLY asked me to ask the preacher.....and I will........I'm just quoting that which HE most likely will.

And while your there Zook ask him if the world is coming to an end while Obama's in office. It's rumored that the world ends in 2012. I hope not I want it to last a little longer at least until Obama gets reelected

No marylin, the world isn't coming to end end in 2012, although the COUNTRY is getting close if China no longer buys up anymore of this DEBT the government wants to keep charging.

Don't hold your breathe on Obama GETTING re-elected. Too many people who supported him the FIRST time, have seen through it now.

There IS always a chance though.........Amnesty might put enough votes in his column. Enough overtime taking names out of graveyards.......then of course, if the GOP starts taking drugs and runs another RINO....that might do it.

I don't see it happening, but it's nice to dream sometimes.

Maybe in my 2nd military career, but I SERIOUSLY doubt it, in my FIRST hitch.

MsM....our pastor doesn't preach anything on homosexuality or any OTHER political issues on Sundays. Sunday is the ONE day I don't have to be BOTHERED with this crap.......and I do my best NOT to listen to any news that day either.

I think it IS by choice.............and either way, it's MY choice not to have them around me, any more than I do a cigarette smoker or an alcoholic.

For the record, my wife smokes........but she either goes out on the porch, or out it the garage. On car trips, I'll stop whenever she wants to get out for a smoke break.....

I'm not intruding on HER rights as a smoker, and she isn't breeching the air that I have to breathe.

COMPROMISE........even the old Bazookaman can do that!

Sal.............If I had surgery and needed BLOOD from my wife, there is no chance of getting HIV.

That fiasco on the Carl Vinson was the LAST FRIGGIN' STRAW for me.

That was IT. This was the final "slap in the face"

Whatever it takes in 2012.....or before. I'm ready to go, when the call comes in.

Many of the readers here wrote comments containing factual errors because they are decades behind the times, aren't familiar with the 21st century military, don't know what the old DADT law did, or what the new DADT Repeal law does.

Before debating any further, here are some corrections that everyone needs to know.

HISTORY. 65,752 bisexuals, lesbians, and gays are on active/reserve duty today, and millions served across the 20th/21st centuries, many with honor and distinction. Their presence never hurt military effectiveness. The Department of Defense has studied male homosexuality since the 1950s. These 7 facts appeared among many others in the famous U.S. Navy's "Crittenden Report - Recommendations for Dealing with Homosexuals" (15 March 1957):

1 * 38% of 19-year-old American males have had one or more homosexual experiences.

2 * Up to 33% of adult males engage in homosexuality on occasions.

3 * About 4% of American males become exclusively homosexual in later life.

4 * There are far too many young male homosexuals to exclude them all from the military.

5 * Many homosexuals serve honorably and well, especially as officers in WWII.

6 * Homosexuals can't be identified by intelligence, education, career, talent, or marital status.

7 * The armed forces include many homosexuals who are never identified.

MILITARY SUCCESS. 41 nations have already ended discrimination against bisexuals, lesbians, and gays, without any harm to military effectiveness, retention, or recruiting.

MILITARY VIEW. The DoD sent out 400,000 surveys last year, in the biggest military survey ever, with a high response rate of 29% and a low margin-of-error of only ±1%. This 266-page report to Congress (30 November 2010) confirmed:

■ 159,318 responders said that most military personnel and spouses want DADT repealed.

■ 70% of all personnel said that gay/lesbian colleagues would have a "positive, mixed, or no effect" on their unit's ability to work together.

■ 92% said their actual experience working with gay/lesbian co-workers in their unit was "very good," "good," or "neither good nor poor."

■ 92% of today's average (20-year-old) recruits, as soon as they get to actually serve alongside fellow soldiers who are gay, are perfectly OK with it.

Although 23% of Marines threatened to resign one year ago, today that number is zero. Commandant General James Amos addressed 12,000 Marines in late December, 2010, and on 18 February 2011 he reported that, "everyone said, 'Sir, we got it. We're going to do this thing.'"

Repealing DADT was such an improvement that across all branches, recruiting and retention goals are being met 100%, with zero resignations.

CIVILIAN VIEW. American taxpayers fund the military, and they set its laws and regulations through Congress and the President/Commander-in-Chief (no military has ever let its soldiers vote on policies or rules). CNN, NBC, ABC, Wall Street Journal, Washington Post, Gallup, Pew, McClatchy, and Quinnipiac University found that 80% of all Americans favor repealing DADT.

COHABITATION. For over a century, bisexuals, lesbians, and gays have lived, worked, played, showered, shaved, and slept near heterosexual soldiers without difficulty. The 65,752 who serve today are already integrated.

HEALTH. The Surgeons General confirmed to Congress that the medical procedures to prevent the spread of HIV and to secure the blood supply of the Military Services are sufficient, and that the repeal of Don't Ask, Don't Tell will have no adverse impact to deployability, and DoD admitted in November 2010 that DADT repeal won't change overall HIV prevalence in the military. Every Service member is tested for HIV at least every two years, and all Service members are tested before and after deployment, on the advice of a doctor, or upon request. Positive HIV test results preclude enlistment, and re-classify active duty personnel as non-deployable. The original fears about HIV no longer apply because of major advances in understanding, treatment, and prevention over the last 20 years.

RELIGION. America was founded not only on freedom of religion, but also on freedom from religion, leaving everyone free to adopt or reject whatever beliefs they wish. No one's Bible takes precedence over any other person. Many people have religious texts and belong to religious sects that promote equal civil rights for bisexuals, lesbians, and gays. People who insist upon forcing their religious sect upon everyone else should move to a theocratic nation where their religion is the federal law, and everyone else is a criminal. That happens in theocracies like Iran, not democracies like America. Once they move there, when Iranian teens go on dates frowned upon by his religious sect, they can go and watch them get publicly whipped -- and then executed -- by their own government.

DADT REPEAL. The new law treats every soldier equally, and all regulations apply to all personnel all the time, and so sexual orientation is no longer a factor in recruiting, training, assignment, evaluation, promotion, retention, discharge, or veteran benefits. No one has to change their personal beliefs, but all military personnel must treat everyone with equal fairness, respect, and dignity. All other standards of conduct and appearance remain in effect, and violence toward anyone is forbidden. Personnel who can't comply with this new direct order are re-trained, then counseled, and, if necessary, discharged for failure to adapt.

PHOBIA. Prejudice against bisexuals, lesbians, and gays is a phobia (an irrational fear) which debilitates the person who suffers from it. That's why homophobes are now discharged if they can't adapt.

Most of the readers here who oppose repealing DADT are un-informed (don't know the situation) and are mis-informed (believe things that were never true at all), and haven't read the facts:

■ Sexual orientation & U.S. military personnel policy (Rand Corporation, 23 November 2010, 446 pages)

■ DADT Repeal Comprehensive Review & Findings (DoD, 30 November 2010, 431 pages)

■ Support Plan for Implementation (DoD, 30 November 2010, 95 pages)

■ DADT Repeal Policy (Undersecretary of Defense Clifford Stanley, 28 January 2011, 7 pages)

■ Branch-Specific Training Materials (DoD, February/March 2011, 214 pages)

Thank you Ned_Flaherty for posting that very informative information. Some that left comments on this blog won't get it thought, even if they have a family member that's gay.

I have raised 5 boys and also helped raise a few more and none of them are afraid of gay people.

I raised my boys not to fear those that are different, to treat each other equal, and not cast the first stone....

LOL ned you sure are confident in your assessment of me arent you? I am so humbled ....

Get a grip will you? It hurt your feelings that I belittled your ridiculous rant and lengthy tirade with a simple example of what a joke you AND your made up word "homophobe" are and you are now doing the standard lib thing

attack/insult/evade... LOL

I do have a news flash for you though I don't mind the "homophobe" label at all just as long as you accept the other "phobia" I think ties in very closely to it "PEDOphobe" You know the ones who like the little children... at one point BOTH were illegal in the US and considered unnatural acts I suppose in another 20 years you or those LIKE YOU will be ranting for their equality and labeling those opposed as "pedophobes" here look I am gonna save you the trouble ned... or how about "beastiophobe" You know about this one I am certain ... just remember ned it is ok to love your dog just not ok to LOVE your dog k...

Food for thought

cjw

Talk about getting hurt feelings lol!

Just a reminder were not talking about pedophiles or beastys those are a whole different discussion.

I hope Brenda deletes your comment

Lesson to be learned here:

If you are going to attempt to be witty and insult others on this web site when their opinion differs from your own I would suggest being certain your intellect and wit are of sufficient capacity to handle the heat.

have a wonderful evening I know I will .....

"Like shootin fish in a barrel"

Nice to read/hear folks speak up, MNTNH and Trouble2011. As you note, we are all equal Americans, at least per the current constitution.

Let's take on the claim that nothing I posted could at all be based in fact. If not factual, then my post must be treachly liberal intellectualizing that any decent, straight, common sense person can wave away, like an annoying mosquito?

And let me put some of the fact checking into its related possible morality frameworks.

Fact 1. You may have doubts, but I stand constant in my observation that few or no USA churches or faith communities are now allowed to use their particular morality to justify inposing a death penalty on queer folks, anywhere in USA.

What is a strong factual authority here? Read the Supreme Court ruling in Lawrence V Texas, for starters.

If we search for wider facts, all we have to do is go back to prior centuries. Truly, the power to impose a death penalty (backed up by an existing, dominant morality or ethical framework or system) was taken more or less for granted at the time. State and church were more united, more all of a powerful piece, together.

Fact 2. I also stand constant per the facts, that in such documented past trial cases the church either could determine if somebody was likely lesbian/gay and then put them to death; or that the church in some cases did the determination bit, then had the state powers put them to death (that state apparatus firmly also believing in the morality to which we might refer.)

Fact 3. Fast foward to today, and I still cannot see how anybody fails to notice the really dramatic change, both in the power to impose death, and the taken for granted morality which uniformly justified power overall, and imposing death in particular.

Interlude? Okay, so my posts are long. I am not after winning awards that we all know do not exist. That remark is what even beginning debaters recognize as a red herring ... it is a sideline theme, meant to distract and get us all off our debate topic.

I am after taking a posted view, claim, and so forth; then seeing if we can slowly work those claims or judgments through, careful point by careful point. Posts get even longer if we also mention or deal with what seem to be commanding frameworks and assumptions, the overt or implied contexts that truly help make the details meaningful. When weighing things, it is often the case that details are only part of the message, compared to being able to get to some working sense of those frameworks, those underlying assumptions.

Let's get to some more facts.

Fact 4. A careful, accurate reading will show that I am not dissing anybody's personal religious views or religious morality as such. Clearly I am noticing that whatever your personal religious and moral views are (as well as, whatever the views of your local faith community) ... neither you nor your faith community has any effective power these days to go out, round up suspected or known queer folks, then subject your detainees to regular or harsh interrogations, and then weigh what punishment your religion or moral ideas would justify in sentencing those detainees. Somebody might sincerely believe that this mission would obviously be a godly calling, and that policing and punishing the queer detainess could be taken for granted as nothing but God's work.

Still can't do it.

Compared to the factual past, this is a big, really big, shift in application of policing and punishing power, seamlessly justified by a related, prevailing religion and moral ideas.

Just like simple facts about how a change has taken place ... my written text clearly points to the shift, not mainly to dissing religion/morality as such.

Fact 5. Given the constitutional separation of church and state, along with a long history of being pretty careful in USA about freedom of religion, the facts simply show that no governmental powers are allowed to impose any given religion or moral idea upon all citizens, uniformly, as a religion-based morality.

Fact 6. Does this mean, then, that USA operates out of a chaotic moral void? Facts show quite the contrary. Our laws clearly state certain lively forms of obvious morality or civic ethics. The catch is two things. One, these legal formulations of moral or ethical behavior apply, regardless of any particular faith/religion and its dependent moral ideas. And, closely related, two, ... these USA laws which are our civic morality do not and cannot depend on any particular faith/religion with its related morality.

Fact 7. What is going on legally is more or less that those USA laws guiding us together most often harmonize with a great many religous/faith and moral ideas a given community or believer probably holds. But, at the same time, these laws are not written and passed in any distinctive, particular religion/morality form and meaning. Nor does any given religion/morality get written into any law, so as to explain, justify, and give controlling meanings to that law.

Let's look at a practical example. If I take an oath in court that I will tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth ... I might even be holding one hand on a Bible. Yet I might be a Muslim or Jewish or an atheist citizen. Some shift is going on in court life, already. Then let's say that I am discovered lying to the court under oath, so I am vulnerable to charges and criminal punishment. In none of all that will particular Muslim, Christian, Jewish, or any other religion/morality be brought up as explanation and justification for my crime and punishment.

Instead, I may be charged, tried, and punished according to the morals involved in the civic law, purposely without any detailed mention of religion or religious morality.

Yet common sense plainly shows all of us that if I am a truth teller, additional religious-moral contexts cannot be part of my court situation. I may inwardly know that I tell the truth because I pledge certain religion/moral ideas as divine truth. That is my personal business, and it just is whatever it is. I still cannot face my obligation to truth telling by bringing in my religion/morality as such. The main thing the court will weigh is whether or not I am following my oath to tell the truth, per existing laws.

Nor am I asked to use whatever my religious-moral commitments might be, as any court mandate that forces my religion/morality in its potential strength and richness, upon any other participating court person.

This unquestioned power to round up, judge, punish was once the norm of both church and state. Period. Readers are correct that this huge power shift is closely linked to how the religion/faith and/or moral ideas previously justified how power was held and applied, as well as how significant it is for all of us as USA citizens that no given set of morality or beliefs are enforced by way of traditional justifications.

One way of looking at this change is to note that the burden of civic and faith responsibilities has shifted. In the powerful past, justified by religion and moral systems, the person who had to scramble in hopes of defending individual liberty and of being justified when faced with power ... was ... always the queer person. Now, clearly, the person(s) who have to see where USA civic and consitutional boundaries set limits is not so much the queer citizen, but the faith/religion holding the moral ideas which previously justified various uses of church plus state power against those queer citizens.

Fact 8. Can we find and test a data trend that shows that religiously grounded believers with categorically antigay views or morals, are slowly tilting towards being a statistical minority? That such current believers may especially be a minority, if we compare them to a not so distant past when very similar believers with very similar views were an obvious statistical majority in USA?

The survey and other data pointing in this direction is so plentiful that you have to make a solid effort, not to come across it.

Fact 9. Is the modern global workplace clearly becoming more diverse across all sorts of individual and group and cultural or other differences? Unless you happen to work, exclusively for yourself ... the factual answer is, Yes.

Are many of these diverse work settings shifting, from considering such diversity as a problem, to understanding such diversity as a powerful source of work effectiveness and of just that sort of innovation that yields rising productivity and rising profits? Check out federal DOL and state DOL reports over the last decade. Look at the diversity policies of all those really big global companies. The best answer is, Yes.

Fact 10. Can we accurately guess whether or not the DADT repeal will chime in with these workplace changes? Will the USA military be the only armed forces to melt down and self-destruct, out of 40 or so militaries who have already made a similar change?

Factually, only history and data over the next two to five years will give us very strong answers to both questions. Still, these are two important questions of fact. We get a glimpse of what we might reasonably predict by looking at other available facts.

As Ned F has posted, the largest survey data that the USA armed forces has ever gathered trend towards the USA military not melting down or self-destructing, just because queer folks can serve openly within the code and military guidelines that apply to all soldiers.

Already noted, the real data from 40 or so armed forces whose members expected terrible trouble, and found little or none, might tell us to hypothesize that even the USA military will not be all that different, ultimately.

Fact 11. Let's go back to those standard debating rules that high school and college debate teams know so well.

A tested and tried debating strategy ... especially when nobody on your team knows any factual or other authoritative information to contradict the opposition debate team points, made in the latest round ... is to somehow forcefully deflect the debate off the topic your side seems to be losing, and onto another topic which your team thinks you can focus, press and win.

If anybody plans to reply again in this interesting comment thread, I hope he or she will address the points and topics at hand. If anybody has any real, current data that shows I've meandered off trail for this or that factual point or inference, then let's see it.

You can still think whatever you like about my earning an advanced degree in human services/health. I was one of the first in my extended family to even be allowed to finish college, let alone be blessed enough to be invited to grad school and finish that work, too.

I will just say, again. If you were my patient or consumer, or a member of my research team ... I still guess that you would be glad that I did all that education and training. Even more, though you might be clear that I am not your sort and never will be your sort, my professional ethics demands that I do my best to see that you get an accurate diagnosis, an effective service or treatment plan, and the sort of follow up or case managing that tries to see you through, to an outcome of recovery and health and wholeness.

Wanna diss me for getting educated? Go ahead, be my guest. Still beside the point we are debating.

HewBet,

Join the fray if you wish but I would suggest before attempting to become the "language" or "ethics" police be sure that you are not being too obvious about your BIAS on the topic at hand, if my comments offend you on a personal level I would suggest YOU are taking them personal... and here's a news flash for you I made my comments in response to being bashed for my VIEWPOINTS AND OPINIONS and labeled with nasty little made up names... Show some class and be respectful and you will receive respect in return. Be hateful and nasty then you probably wont like my responses.

I still stand with Savage..............liberalism is a mental disorder.

Zook,

Way outta line you ignorant man! After reading all of your posts on this topic, I have concluded that your little pea brain is only capable of thinking one way. Yes I am attacking you! I am more than positive that you will some how write another novel regarding my post. Dont care to hear it buddy! I feel sorry for you and those around you that share the same opinions you do regarding the gay community. Marine or not, your opinion is uneducated at best! Do us a favor, turn off the computer and go back to snuggling with your guns! There are so many things I want to say to you but this is not the appropriate forum. I hope you are not a practicing Christian man because that would make you look like an even bigger fool!

HewBet

A long time ago my husband and I took in Foster children.

One girl we had a couple times and when she graduated from HS she joined the Marines and stayed in it for I think at least 15 yrs. While in the Marines she married a marine and they never go around bragging that they were Marines unless the topic comes up then they will talk about their Marine days... While in the Marines she was a Drill Sargent for awhile, and got shipped around a lot.

WELL ia am glad to see others who have went after these subjects from a differebt angle and they still get the same response i do.There is a common denominator,if you disagree you get called names,or attacked for your writting and punctuation,sentence structure etc,all that doesnt count.Like the man said deflection so you dont have to answer.

I get attacked for my passion,the DR gets attacked for facts,amazing how that works.The contempt for anyone not right wing,conservative,neocon,conservative independent etc is of the charts.and the insults that go with it are to.But i guess thats our fault for exsisiting????????????????? OH well im not going anywhere and obviosly neither are they so let the show continue....HEW BET...SAL MANILLA.make up your mind.....maybe its both of them.(laugh)

. MS M....all i can say is we are not alone anymore......WHAT TOOK YOU GUYS SO LONG MY PATIENCE WERE WEARING THIN ........ I know and attack is comming just watch........(smile)bring it on !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! im refueled and rearmed, lets do it.

You're absolutely correct BloodyKnuckles............I DO only think ONE WAY...............

And I've never SAID, DONE or SUPPORTED ANY idea or movement to SELL this country out, or corrupt its morale fiber.

I put OUR country FIRST

I put VETERANS ahead of terrorists

I put CITIZENS ahead of Illegals

I put the Bible ahead of the Koran (and if I mis-spelled THAT, WHO CARES!)

I put our Constitution ahead of ANYTHING coming out of Washington these days

....and I still stand when the flag passes by.........

I'm a proud right-winger, and if you or anybody else out there can't deal with that, you can take a long walk on a short pier.

Ya know what I say Lamont?

If there's been a "fleecing" in this country.......it's been on US by the POLITICIANS.

Those boys on Capitol Hill have made CAREERS out of the "ART OF FLEECING!"

When MOST of these congressmen & senators die.....they'll have to CORKSCREW 'em into the ground!

lamont,

OK I will go through this with you again if after that you STILL refuse to see any viewpoint besides your own I am going to give up and just begin referring to you as "A.S. Jr." (al sharpton jr.)

You said:

"I didnt call anyone a racist I said the lady had and agenda"

NOPE your right you didn't outright call her a racist but you darn sure made certain you IMPLIED IT didn't you!

You said:

"I have been NICE in the face of some pretty heavy insults..........But you see I have had practice doing that,,,MY ENTIRE LIFE.....something you dont know anything about.......it made me very strong in the face of that."

AND AGAIN here you go trying to claim racial discrimination as YOURS and YOURS ALONE because god knows ONLY poor poor lamont has ever been discriminated against!!! WAKE UP DUDE!

Have you ever lived in a community where you were the minority and tried to take your family grocery shopping only to be surrounded by a group of five large persons of that MAJORITY in that community so they could call you racial slurs, spit at your feet, and dare you to do anything about it in front of your wife and 8 year old child?

I DOUBT IT, to you it is always the same old song, you heard someone say bigger or trigger, and POOF in your mind they just called POOR POOR YOU a racial slur behind your back because those "so and so's are ALWAYS out to get you..."

Ever lived in a community where you are the minority and been rear ended at a stop light by one of those MAJORITYs, had them scream bloody murder and racial slurs at you til you are ready to come unglued, and then had the added pleasure of being TICKETED by a police officer of that same MAJORITY, then the final slap in the face when you show up in court and realize you are very much so the minority there as the MAJORITY judge finds you at fault even though all evidence points to that MAJORITY driver who REAR ENDED A STOPPED VEHICLE!...

Get it sport, times have changed! get over yourself.

And the final news flash I have for you, regardless of how you feel about me or my trying to educate you about the truth of our times, I still think your not a bad guy probably have seen ME in the crowd a few times whistling and yelling and enjoying your music.

The stupidity in this country rests squarely with the voters. We can't really blame the thieves in D.C., when it was US (collectively) who let 'em in the door.

Exit polls DO indicate that between the two major parties, our party IS the "majority" by a small margin.

It was the SWING voters----frustrated with Bush (and rightfully so), who wanted "change" at any price. They were RIPE for the "GREATEST SHOW" on earth......."Step right up, ladies and gentlemen."

NEITHER party can win without the Independents.

The Independents have NO major party affiliation, and tend to think for THEMSELVES (as we ALL should do). As frustrated as they were with Bush.....I SERIOUSLY doubt the "swing voters" are going to endorse another four years of THIS, and they've already helped give us a SAMPLE of this last November when SIXTY seats changed hands. SIXTY...........that's practically UNHEARD of.

THIS is the REAL "motivator" behind the push for "Amnesty" is they can get it. Every illegal who gets a chance to vote, is going to vote for the one who made it POSSIBLE for him to break the law, and thumb his nose at the rest of us.

Holder & company have NO INTENTION of trying to stop the potential "votes" they're gonna need.

This "killing of Bin Laden" came at a very good time for the White House, with the approval numbers being where they've been.......the left will cheer, rant, weep and get all "warm-fuzzied", and Obama will try to get as much mileage out of it as he can.......can't blame him for that---smart move..........but he's still gonna have to pull off some kind of MIRACLE between now and November of 2012.

Bin Laden's death hasn't created another job, stopped another forclosure, or dropped the price of gasoline. It hasn't made us any safer, nor stopped another thousand illegals from sneaking in.

If the left doesn't do SOMETHING about keeping ANY of the many promises they made to get elected, Obama is going to be like McCain next time around-----it won't take too much of a candidate to beat him.

A guy out of work, out of money and out of his home in 2012, isn't going to care that we killed Bin Laden in 2011. It might have been a "feel-good headline", but it doesn't put food on his family's table.

The President has done little else but travel, speak to crowds in his "eternal campaign mode" over these past 2 & a hlf years. Almost everytime we see him, he's speaking to some university, or flying state-to-state trying to "rev 'em up".......the 2008 election is OVER, but it's like he's STILL been out there CAMPAIGNING!

How much time does he actually spend doing the job he convinced so many voters he would do? I mean, the guy gets all these lawyers to draft up 2,000 page bills that only a skilled team of stenographers could possibly read, and then he gets HIS side of the aisle to PASS THEM (so we can find out what's in it!).

This administration (which was going to be the most "TRANSPARENT administration in HISTORY"), has given us a glimpse of NOTHING, until after it's a "done deal"

.....and not even THEN.....

9/11 casualties have thus far added up to about 55,000 people and more money than anyone can imagine, and still we don't get to see the photos of Bin Laden's dead body...........what?......only the selected "elite" can see them? The ones who PAID for it all don't get to see them?

We'll only bring on reprisals if we do.........(LIKE THAT ISN'T GOING TO HAPPEN ANYWAY?)

The photos are "too gruesome" says the White House. The American people can handle that--------we ALL saw our fellow citizens jumping hopelessly from the burning towers to THEIR deaths........how "gruesome was THAT?"

I guess it's better not to OFFEND terrorist groups, that it would have been to bring some SOLID closure to an entire nation.

I forget who it was now, but I guess that one blogger was right...........I DO only see things ONE WAY.

USA! USA! USA! USA! USA!............(ha-ha---THAT"LL offend some folks on this blogsite!)

HOMMER........WHY DO YOU KEEP ANSWERING HOMMER WHY?????????OH I SEE CJW CANT ANSWER FOR HIMSELF.

YOUR THE JOKE HOMMER YOU JUST HAVNT FIGURED IT OUT YET OR YOU HAVE AND ITS SO OUT THERE THAT YOU CANT GET THERE.

MY TRIBULATIONS ARE MINE I DONT CARE WETHER YOU LIKE THEM OR NOT. YOU ARE THE PART OF AMERICA THAT HAS BEEN THE PROBLEM.PROBLEM IS YOUR STILL THE PROBLEM AND WILL CONTINUE TO BE.

YES HOMMER ALL 69 YRS SOMETHING PEOPLE LIKE YOU NEVER GET TO.............WONDER WHY??????????IS THERE A GOD??????????????? hmmmmmmmmmmm!!!!!!!!!!

You know MtnHomer, if you were to write a life story of yourself, you'd probably find that the way the world looked to you at 12 or 13 would appear different than the world appears to you today.

How so?

No need to get testy MtnHomer. You provided the excerpt from the book that contained the age reference.

I made no claim that "these excerpts were when he was 12 or 13 years old.".

You made the faulty inference.

Besides, you acknowledged I was right..."You know Dave, you're right..." Go read it yourself.

CJW.......do you know what makes your statment so silly?????? you are trying to compare a lifetime of discrimination to your what?year, 2 years if that there is no comparison.Why dont you consider how your life might be if you had to endure that daily for the rest of your life. The exsperience should have opened your eyes to the heinous nature of discrimination but obviosly it didnt.I dont watch SURVIVOR or AMERICAN IDOL SO WHATEVER THAT WAS SOPPOSED TO MEAN ??????????

IT is funny to me how blacks are stereotyped in there behavior but if you group whites they get upset. how does it feel?????????? MAYBE IF YOU REALLY KNEW YOU WOULDNT DO IT.ILL SHARE THAT LESSON WITH YOU, TRY TO TAKE IT CONSTRUCTIVLY.cjw I AM IN CONTROL,,,,,BITTER,HATEFILLED,FAR FROM IT

AND AS FAR AS LITTLE GOES THAT DOESNT EVEN COME IN TO PLAY.........I SENT MORE KIDS TO COLLEGE OCS AND VARIOUS OTHER PLACES TO HELP THEM HAVE GREAT LIVES THAN YOU WILL EVER KNOW AND YOU KNOW WHAT..... cjw MOST OF THEM WERE .....WHITE, SO YOU KNOW WHAT YOU CAN, GO DO DONT YOU.?????????YOU DONT KNOW ANTHING ABOUT ME YOU SHOULD KEEP THOSE KINDA INSULTS TO YOURSELF......OR AT LEAST ASK..........AND I STILL DONT DO RAP OR COUNTRY SO DONT BOTHER

AS jr.

(by the way al has made a ton of money keeping the racism money train rolling, I doubt you jumping on will help your wallet though)

bitter bitter little man... I don't care if you are 10 feet tall dude, you are so self centered and constantly have to be the only one who knows whats best. That makes you the "little man" I refer too.

It is ALWAYS the same place you run too whenever things don't go lamonts way.... "racists racists racists" In your little mind you never look past your OWN RACIST ATTITUDE to see possibly others have independant thought, NOPE lamont knows best and they all evil whitey racists to you....

This attitude of yours is something else. If I were to let hate burn inside me as long and harshly as you have I am guessing I would have died from bleeding ulcers by now.

cant justwatch - what is that? You always end up taking matters into your own hand?

Sounds to me like you're tired of people suffering from the effects of vicitimization. Kind of like,"Shut up and get on with your life."

Well, I'd say the same applies to you. In fact, we're all suffering from the effects of the state sanctioned policies that washed people down the street with fire hoses, required them to sit at the back of the bus, denied their access to housing, etc.

Sounds like you can't bear your burden.

Homer do I see a hint of jelousy because you had to work so hard and got no hand outs?

Jelousy - an emotion directed at a specific object. Expressed in a passionate mistrust, suspicion, lingering doubts in anyone's loyalty, love, full devotion. jelousy can serve as a motive. jelousy - the manifestation of possessive, worsened by the increased selfishness.

CJW ..........I DONT CARE WETHER YOU VOTED FOR O BAMA OR NOT........I VOTED FOR HIM BECAUSE MC CAIN PICKED MS PALIN....HOW DOES THAT GRAB YOU???AND THAT WAS THE MAIN REASON NO OTHER,ANBODY WHO HAS ASKED ME, THAT IS WHAT I HAVE TOLD THEM RIGHT FROM THE BEGINNING......IM SURE YOU WILL DISPUTE THAT. I DONT CARE. I WILL SUPPORT THE PRESIDENT WHO IS IN OFFICE.......I SUPPORTED BUSH, DIDNT LIKE IT BUT HE WAS MY PRESIDENT.

YOU THINK YOU KNOW ME YOU DONT, TRY AND REMEBER THAT. YOU HAVNT ASKED ANY QUESTION TO GET TO KNOW ME. UNTIL YOU DO, EVERYONE HAS AND OPINION AND I REALLY DONT CARE WHAT YOURS IS ABOUT ME.I ONLY HAVE TO ANSWER TO MY GOD ........AND THAT AINT YOU OR YOUR BUDDY......SEE YA

MtnHomer, you ought to spell check your own posts before you attempt to correct others. We all misspell, this isn't a formal forum. Quit being a jerk.

Check it. "I've lived a life of privelege?????", and, "... I'm a person of "privelege"..."

MtnHomer,

Whenever you get one of those chain emails you should probably Google it or do some checking before you re-post or forward. I grabbed one of the lines from your post and pasted it into Google. The first four links that were returned are below (the first link provides the actual paragraph and page numbers or citations where applicable). This has been circulating for a long time and is shown to be quote-mining, twisted/taken out of context, or completely made up - so regardless of what your or my opinion may be these are not entirely factual. Putting forth one of these types of chain emails as a condemnation of anyone is no different than coming on here claiming you personally are helping out your new friend, the Nigerian prince and you are going to be a millionaire now.

http://www.factcheck.org/askfactcheck/di...

http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/coi...

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/...

http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/o/o...

HEWBET......I DONT....STEELY DAN COUNTS(SMILE).....I DO KNOW SOME GUYS WHO NEED A BASE PLAYER IN YOUR AGE GROUP.........THATS IF YOU WANT TO SWITCH.You dont need anything but you.....they have it all.they just want to play every now and then......i can tell you it has been my experience that 2nd guitar players make the best bass players in the world.......they know the chords better than most.12 bar blues counts you can go anywhere from there.....you know the basic blues progressions are also the the country progressions just one uses 6ths and the other uses flat 9th. THEORY LESSON FOR THE DAY (LAUGH) IF YOUR INTRESTED LET ME KNOW THEY WOULD LOVE TO HAVE SOMEONE.........HEWBET what he just got caught at happens all the time nothing new there,notice even the post has false info ..or twisted. anyhow i got things to do, have to travel today to eagle so im going to get after some things check you people later..........HE DOESNT COUNT IN THE WHOLE SCHEME OF THINGS,HE JUST DOESNT KNOW IT..................

MtnHomer,

To start the very first website I linked to does address every one of the "quotes"...they are just put in a different order depending upon the style of the infraction. So here you go, the order from your chain email and then the order on the page in which they are proven to be false:

1. "I ceased to advertise my mother's race at the age of 12 or 13, when I began to suspect that by doing so I was ingratiating myself to whites."

Factcheck.org -- fifth down under "Context, Please"

2. "I found a solace in nursing a pervasive sense of grievance and animosity against my mother's race."

Factcheck.org -- first down under "False Quotes"

3. "There was something about her that made me wary, a little too sure of herself, maybe and white."

Factcheck.org -- fourth down under "Doctored Quotes"

4. "It remained necessary to prove which side you were on, to show your loyalty to the black masses, to strike out and name names."

Factcheck.org -- sixth down under "Context, Please"

5. "I never emulate white men and brown men whose fates didn't speak to my own. It was into my father's image, the black man, son of Africa , that I'd packed all the attributes I sought in myself; the attributes of Martin and Malcolm, DuBois and Mandela."

Factcheck.org -- third down under "Doctored Quotes"

6. "I will stand with the Muslims should the political winds shift in an ugly direction."

Factcheck.org -- second down under "False Quotes"

So yes, "what [I am] saying is the email [you] received and posted here was a "lie". Thank you however for the concession that some of them were taken out of context. I don't need courage to defend Obama's policies because I didn't vote for him so I am under no personal obligation to do so. Another reason is because that is not what the original point of your discussion was, but good try moving the goal posts in your reply to me by switching from Obama's alleged racism to his policies.

However, I do think it was important to show your chain email was garbage since it was your "proof" that lamont had built a straw man for false claims of racism and bigotry. Your chain email was exactly that...a whole bunch of fallacies used as evidence.

MsMarylin: I busted out laughing at your Ron Paul example...too funny and really makes a good point!

HewBet: I'm glad I gave you a laugh. That's how I felt when I read the original post by MtnHomer. I couldn't believe he had actually posted it. I've seen another poster use those types of emails before on their blog but I refuse to engage their particular brand of stupidity.

YEP....YOU SEE HOW HE JUMPED .....AND HE COULDNT GET AWAY FROM IT.......BY THE WAY YOU TALKING TO ME HOMMER??????????? WITH OR WITHOUT YOUR CLOAK OR IS THERE A DIFFERENCE????????? YOU CANT HANG.........YOU EVER HEARD OF A GAME CALLED THE DOZENS?????????? TEACHES YOU HOW TO ENDURE NAME CALLING......BETTER LEARN TO PLAY HOMMER.....TO FUNNY..............HEWBET.....i dont know were you live but we will be at wood river cellars tonight 7-9 and next week we are at willow creek grill in meridian/eagle 8.30-12.30 next saturday we will hook up im sure.

THANKYOU PCBETTY !!!!!!!!!!!NOTICE HOW HE JUMPED ON ME ...... GO FOR IT HOMMER.YOU HAVNT STOPED NAME CALLING .WHY IS THAT?????

WEAK MIND TRYING TO EXPRESS IT SELF FORCEFULLY.

YOUR NEXT PCBETTY........WANT TO BET??????? HOW MUCH??????????????

YOU HAVE THE NERVE TO ACCUSE PEOPLE OF GOING AFTER THE MESSAGE,SPELLING,GRAMMAR,PUNCTUATION ,SOURCE ETC

YOU HAVE GOT TO BE KIDDING ME !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

WHATEVER YOUR DRINKING YOU NEED TO STOP

YOU SOUND VERY VERY DEFENSIVE hOMMER YOU DONT LIKE IT DO YOU????????????????? DONT DISH IT OUT AND YOU WONT HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT IT.......

YOUR WORDS" THIS IS A BLOG DUMMIES!YOU CAN POST ON HERE ANYTHING YOU WANT TO"......... you said it now live with it..............decorum hasnt stoped you in the past.WHY NOW ????????????? temper ,temper,temper......i wouldnt want your emotions to come out.........GASP !!!!!!!!!!!I TOLD YOU SOME MONTHS BACK .....YOU ACT LIKE THE BULLY ON THE BLOCK AND YOU KNOW WHAT HAPPENS THEN,IF YOU DIDNT YOU ARE FINDING OUT...........

ME PERSONALLY I AM SICK OF YOUR NAME CALLING......

PERIOD,YOU CANT SAY HELLO WITHOUT CALLING A NAME FIRST............PRACTICE HOW NOT TO......I DONT THINK IT WILL HELP BUT YOU COULD TRY

Homer if your still reading my blog, pay attention the next one is especially for you and your going to love the title.

I'll say a prayer for you tonight !

What a nice surprise Zook, I'm glad you got to spend some time with them. I was wondering why you were being so quiet lol !

GHood morning and a fine start to a new week of fun arguments LOL

Just MY "two cents worth" on all of this.

1) Nobody likes being called racist either, OR having it insinuated so often at every turn. To some of us THAT is pretty harsh "name calling" and labeling. Perfect example MsMarylin didn't seem to mind so I haven't commented on it, but let's face it someone steered this blog post away from the topic and brought race into it... Time and time again blogs on here seem to get hijacked lately and become a "race debate" Can we PLEASE let that horse rest in peace????

MsMarylin,

To each their own. I can understand how some people like those little ankle biters but they drive me nuts. I prefer dogs that when they bite they actually do some damage, plus I will never forget being a kid a LONG LONG time ago and this chihuahua that used to always chase me on my way to school.... grr I hated that little ankle biter... My dogs now would make a quick snack out of it if they thought it was bothering me :-)

One of those things I do love about Mountain Home, I leave my doors unlocked all the time, as a matter of fact I don't even own a key to my door. I am certain it helps a bit that my DOGS decide who does and does not come in my house, and I sleep very well at night because of that.

cjw I don't have a pack of chihuahuas. The online business I have caters to the chihuahuas. I make clothes so the owners can dress up their little dog.

It's a way to make money and if they want to buy them I am willing to make and sell the clothes. lol ! I do have 2 chihuahuas and some other little ankle biters.

No one will attempt to come int my home if I left the doors unlocked, my yappy dogs will yap at anything. And its a lot of noise !

HEWBET.....I AM FROM BKLYN.....WHEN I WAS A KID WE DIDNT LOCK OUR DOORS BUT THAT WAS THEN..........WAS IN DRUM CORP, USE TO GO UPSTATE ALL THE TIME,PLUS BOY SCOUTS WENT TO CAMP EVERY SUMMER AT TEN MILE RIVER........small world.

One of my son's used to live in Buffalo, isn't that close to Canada? He now lives in Liverpool near Albany and is scheduled to go to Afghanistan next year. They moved the date from this year to next year